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Ghassan (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 63.169.34.10
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 01:11 pm: |   |
"La Illaha Illa Allah" is not a Muslim chant necessarily. It roughly means, "There is no God but the one God", something that Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe, going back to the Ten Commandments. Similarly, "Allah u Akbar" doesn't necessarily convey a Muslim sentiment. While it translates into "God is Greater" (and not the erroneous "God is Great"), the phrase is still part of the daily Muslim chant, calling on Muslims to pray. Billal, a freed slave and one of the first people to follow Mohammad, chanted it first, and it underscored God's supremacy over everything. I could be wrong, but I don't even think "Allah u Akbar" is written in the Koran.
While Muslim interpretations of the Koran have been blamed for many egregious violations of human rights and liberties, US consistent and blind support of Jewish nationalism and its derivatives has created a polarizing political atmosphere in the Middle East. And while Muslims continue to debate and wrangle over Islam's role in modern politics, the US backing of Jewish nationalism invariably defeats attempts to invalidate Muslim theocracies, as in Iran. Alas, the majority of Americans don't perceive this as a double standard.
Yet how can anyone separate US Middle East policy for Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Saudia, Lebanon, or Syria, from US support of Israel? Thomas Friedman talks and writes about moderate Middle Easterners he knows. I listened to him the other night on CSPAN, and I felt like volunteering my services to the US military in Iraq.
Friedman's pseudo-liberal message was buttressed by references to people like his PhD Iraqi friends, whose appointment to the Iraqi governing council, for example, makes that body the most educated governing body in the Middle East, according to Friedman. And of Israel, Friedman pointed out during the broadcast that the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis was a "zero-sum" conflict. He spoke of the so-called silent majority while referring to the privileged people he knows, and, typical of the American self-serving perspective, Friedman completely avoided non-partisan introspection while criticizing Arabs for the lack of it.
Like I mentioned, I strongly felt like volunteering for service in Iraq while listening to Friedman; but I was thankfully shaken out of this contagious self-deception through a quick analysis of the buzzwords people like Friedman use: moderates, extremists, and the silent majority.
Who are those people Friedman and his ilk prop up for our consumption? I am yet to find an answer to this question; but I continue trying.
I watched a lower level US government official, a PhD type, participating in a discussion on al-Jazeera a couple of days ago. The show was broadcast from Beirut, where a Syrian government official was being interviewed, and the show included the participation of an Arab media personality in London. The interviewer, someone whom I'm starting to admire, whose name escapes me at this time, should be commended for keeping the discussion focused on Israel's military aggression on Syrian soil, in spite of many attempts to widen the discussion to the US occupation of Iraq. The studio audience included student leaders of college chapters for the many Lebanese political parties, and they were each given an opportunity to voice their opinions. The discussion remained civil throughout the show, without anyone attempting to speak over another no matter how much they disagreed.
Answering a question about what Arabs should do to communicate their message to Washington, the US government PhD started his answer: "If the Syrian government was smart …" So much for PhDs; but if this PhD was any indication, then US government contempt for Arabs is complete.
It doesn't make a difference anymore if Arabs are Christians, Jews, Muslims, or heathens, the US government seems intent on turning a deaf ear to all but the very few who parrot its policy line. Islamists all, it seems like Arabs aren't "smart" enough to understand what's required of them, and the message being broadcast by US officials, even on Arabic satellite shows, is that Arabs need to obey US government orders, and there are no guarantees that Arab nations will be considered figuratively equal to the Jewish nation after doing so. Only from such a mentality can the president of the world's remaining super power declare that Israel has the right to defend itself by any means after it had attacked a militarily weaker neighboring country!
Oh, but that's not what Americans are hearing. We are told they hate us for our freedoms. We are told that there are Islamic radicals over there who want to turn the Middle East into something similar to Nazi Germany. And we are rightly told that Arab governments need to be reformed. (Does any government in the world not need reforming to varying degrees?)
We are told that radical Islamists want to defeat US democratic efforts in the Middle East by establishing Islamic nationalism while we are shielded from the fact that US support of Israel is support of Jewish nationalism (more harshly described as Jewish supremacy) over a multi-ethnic population. We are told that a Syrian Accountability Act, soon to be signed into law by president Bush, aims to liberate Lebanon, without being told that previous US and Israeli attempts to liberate Lebanon have amounted to establishing Christian nationalism, modeled after early twentieth century European fascism, over a multi-ethnic society.
We are also told by the Thomas Friedmans that the US intends to build democracy in Iraq from the ground up, ignoring the salient fact that Arabs have not forgotten how Middle Eastern democracies had been toppled by the help of the US because they didn't toe the US line, especially where Israel was concerned. Yet how have US policies changed now that there is no other super power to balance it? Preemption anyone?
Aren't the majority of Americans bothered that US allies in the Middle East top human rights violation lists?
In the meantime, Syrians are feeling jilted by the US in the war on terror, the dumb fucks. While, on the one hand, the US government recognizes "valuable" Syrian assistance against al-Qaeda, the US is taking the same steps it took prior to invading Iraq. Syria, a militarily and economically weak nation, seems to fit the profile of countries most likely to be invaded by US forces; but, most importantly, Syria is the next country mapped out by Israel Firsters in 1996, as part of the plan to secure the Jewish nation.
And while the US champions Jewish and Christian nationalism, drawing a line that separates all other Middle Eastern interests into the "against us" category, it is not inconceivable that all factions who don't espouse the ethnic supremacy promoted by the United States will eventually unite as "Islamists", since Muslims constitute the largest population, irrespective of their ethnic and ideological differences. Lebanon had once witnessed such a unity during its civil war, and Lebanon's different, sometimes opposing, political parties that united in their opposition to such ethnic nationalism were aptly named the National Front.
George Bush might have subsequently succeeded in uniting Arab nationalists, and they are all Islamists, terrorists, and Saddam loyalists now.
I wrote the above a couple of days ago for a political discussion group that is already familiar with my references. Jewish nationalism refers to Israel, the Jewish state. Many people don't see a problem with such an arrangement, and it is their prerogative; but people of my non-Jewish ethnicity have to live under such a discriminatory state, bordering on racism. I once posed the question: does Jewish supremacy rule in Israel? I'm truly interested in how Americans answer it. I'm not interested in Nazi-like sentiments, only in introspective honesty. Either way, I'm not trying to stir trouble. Patrick had once written on the subject, and was squarely rebuffed by some. I responded to the terrorist thread, and I percieve an intolerance of diverse opinion, which is a sad observation about writers. |
pacwriter
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
970
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 03:30 pm: | |
People of different backgrounds have different views.
Two things always stick in my brain about Israel
1. Created by the UN to give the Jews a place to live after leaving Europe.
2. The war - all the neighboring Arab nations attacked Israel and were defeated.
The winning nation - Israel - feared more attacks and annexed the West Bank and Gaza. Security precaution.
I, me only, do not like the stand the United States government takes of supporting Israel. We send them too much money and give too much political support to them. I understand the reason this happens - hometown political consequences. The Democratic senators have no choice but to support Israel.
Having said this, the vast majority of Americans would rather see the USA have fewer ties to Israel. But, the older Americans who remember WW2, remember the USA efforts to save the Jews AFTER THE WAR. Also, they still feel the shame for turning their ears from the cries of the Jews dying in the camps.
It is not stated but it is feared by many that the Arab nations would bring on another holocaust. If the Palestinian/Saudi/Islam fanaticism goes unchecked I fear this would occur.
Having studied world religions in college and seminary, I understand religious fanaticism. It leaves no room for dissent. Death to the non-believer. It doesn't matter what religion you want to talk about, there are fanatics who will do all they can to rid the world of non-believers. Islam, unfortunately, has a growing element.
Those who preach hate are those who should not be tolerated.
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2351
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 04:03 pm: | |
I'm not intelligent enough to discuss this topic, except to say that the US sends everyone too much money. With the billions spent annually greasing wheels in other countries, the US could take care of their own, including the cannon fodder they ship to every corner of the globe. The sin is mixing in everywhere else instead of taking care of business at home. Just my simplistic uneducated opinion. I see all politicians as having the wrong priorities. |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wandering Member
Post Number:
285
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 04:46 pm: | |
Ah, but can any of 'em write a story worth a good GOD damn? |
pacwriter
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
971
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 04:55 pm: | |
The United States sends over 85% of the total food for hunger to feed starving nations. No other country comes even close to the amount of humanitarian aid.
Yes, others can rave on about "political" motivations of the US but what are they doing to feed the hungry of the world, fight the diseases of the world, or to promote peace in the world.
What are the Muslim countries of the world (those with vast oil reserves) doing to end suffering?
What are the Communist countries doing?
What are the Europeans doing?
If we stopping funding the UN, guess what? No UN
We are the biggest, the richest but also the most generous. And what do we get for it? Hatred, terrorists, accusations of Imperialism.
In the last 100 years, has the United States taken over any country and held it as a possession? Yes we have supported democratic change, even brought about democracies that later we ceased to support once those democracies came under dictatorial domination by either a leader or a political party.
If anyone has a complaint, it should be Mexico because of the land we took from them at the conclusion of the Mex-American war. But they are getting even, the Latin population now exceeds the black making them the largest and fastest growing minority.
Marxist, Fascist, Communist, Socialist, and Fanatical Religious may hate the USA but what have they done for the people of the world? Would the world be better without a United States of America? I doubt it, that is why there is forming of an European United States.
Before people knock the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, they better see if their nation, organization, cause or religion comes close to matching what THE UNITED STATES does for the people of the world.
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wandering Member
Post Number:
286
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 06:39 pm: | |
preach, preach on preacher 
ok that is an obscure southern reference.
perhaps I will just say DITTO, Pac
Besides, how many boards were spammed with this tripe today?
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C. E. Winterland
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1191
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 07:11 pm: | |
Hmmm.
The first thing I try to remember during such a discussion is that I, a representative of the American general populus, know that I do not have all the facts. We are absolutely bombarded with all sorts of talk regarding the middle east, but it is fairly one-sided - and no one is telling all the truth, to be certain.
Ghassan, you write beautifully.
A very smoothe discourse, and enjoyable for that even over the miasma of reactions induced by the topic, both emotional and intellectual (if I may presume to say that I possess such).
Does the US lie in bed with Israel because Israel is a primarily Jewish state? Or is it because they have adopted western ideals to some extent? (Ideals, not ideology). In the scheme of the U.S. makeup... Utah strikes me as different than any of the states in which I have personally lived. The world of earth is not big enough for us to create isolated nations anymore, and it's too big to put up huge walls around whole countries. In the future there is tolerance, or there is annihilation for us all. Is the goal of every single person on this earth somehow different? Or would we all like to survive, for our families to survive, for our nations to survive?
In this day and age, hatred and intolerance on the scale of societies and nations leads extremely quickly toward annihilation. Who, in the world, sees this? Who has the knowledge and perspective to see it coming?
You and I have lives to live. We know there is the threat of biological weapons, nuclear weapons, etc... Yet I go to work every day to earn a paycheck to pay my bills so that I can continue living and perhaps someday have a family and support them so that they can continue living. I do not like poor or selfish drivers - but I don't shoot them with a bazooka when they zip in and out of traffic on the highway as though they are playing a video game and no one's life is at stake (though the thought has crossed my mind, I'll admit). I realize this may seem an overly simplistic view, but the US has the wherewithall to put people all over the place to promote a non-violent, non-hating, compatible society in the society that is humanity. Besides, even if we do think about the fact that we could, theoretically, buy or build a nuclear weapon (or a stockpile of them) and use it as we pleased, what power do we have as individuals to convince nations of anything?
The U.S. is in no way blame-proof. We absolutely have our own interests. Is it the suppression of ethnicity or religion? Anyone who believes that is a fool. There's simply way too much focus on what we do (and in some cases don't do). I periodically try to step back as if I can gaze on the whole of humanity and ponder where the world is going. From the first moment of recorded history, there is a trend. Humanity is growing. Not only physically, but mentally, emotionally, technologically, scientifically, medically, economically, and ultimately philosophically (though many argue that philosophy as a discipline is dead). We have reached a point in our evolution where we have the ability to go WAY beyond scuffling with our neighbors to the point of the actual, and very real, annihilation of the human (and every other) species.
Those who are insistent upon highlighting their differences by conflict will come under closer and closer scrutiny until tolerance is either achieved or it is forced upon them. It is better that no one is forced, obviously... but it is going to happen, we are all human, afterall. At some point, there will come a refusal to tolerate, and the result will be someone's hand will be forced to act. Knowing what we all know about the state of the world - if a hand was forced tomorrow, whose hand would it be?
Whether we like it or not, the world is no longer made up of thousands of different peoples. We are one people with differences. It seems our task is to either a) recognize that and continue as best we can; or b) die.
OK... so I'm just rambling here, and I'm prone to naivite, so I hope I haven't incited any anger.
CEW
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pacwriter
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
973
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 07:21 pm: | |
CE - to quote Steven "Preach on Preacher."
I'm in total agreement. Your discourse was very well written and thoughtful
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Ghassan (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 63.169.34.10
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 07:09 am: | |
pacwriter,
I don't doubt your sincerity. I read your response twice, and I have a problem with your introduction and your conclusion:
Two things always stick in my brain about Israel
1. Created by the UN to give the Jews a place to live after leaving Europe.
2. The war - all the neighboring Arab nations attacked Israel and were defeated.
and
Having studied world religions in college and seminary, I understand religious fanaticism. It leaves no room for dissent. Death to the non-believer. It doesn't matter what religion you want to talk about, there are fanatics who will do all they can to rid the world of non-believers. Islam, unfortunately, has a growing element.
There is a common element among Zionists, Christians and Jews alike, which betrays their fanaticism. It betrays latent bigotry and/or racism. It denies room for humanity. Actually, it is the denial of a people's existence, the Palestinian people. Your response amounts to blaming the victim for becoming victims of an imperious movement. Sure, Zionists first came to Palestine with the intent to live among the indigenes; but somewhere along the line, Zionist ambitions overcame their pretext, way before the Holocaust.
In fact, the Holocaust was exploited by some Zionist leaders, not for any concern for European Jewry, as even David ben Gurion once stated that he’d have sacrificed thousands of Jewish children if they forced a choice between having a Jewish state and saving their lives. No, this movement, Zionism, was intent on establishing a colonial state long before Hitler started massacring European Jews, and the Holocaust continues to be derided among Israeli Jews as an example of Jewish weakness, condemning much of the Jewish character I love.
Over four hundred Palestinian villages lay destroyed, testament to Arab failure to save them. Zionists, of course, spin the events to suggest that Arabs attacked Israel! What idiocy. Israel had never previously existed as a state. Biblical Israel wasn’t even called Israel. But what’s more telling about your omissions, and there are many, is how you totally ignore Israel’s identity as the Jewish state, even when a substantial number of its citizens aren’t even Jews. What’s damning is how you ignore Israel’s debates about protecting its ‘Jewish character’, refusing the existence of Palestinian refugees and going as far as suggesting the removal of the remaining non-Jewish Israelis. The implications of such debates should have long been damned by the United States, but all I see, read, and hear are apologetics made by people who should know better.
Muslim jurists follow quite a telling principle: what is based on a fallacy is false. I criticize your false perspective without personal animosity, for you've shown me none, and you might not be aware of your failings as a human being in this regard. I don’t promote any religion. I’m loath to enter a mosque as much as I am a synagogue or a church; but your superficial understanding of Muslims and Islam is quite evident. Islam, just as Judaism and Christianity, has its intolerant elements. There is nothing peculiar about Islam in that respect, other than your perspective as a Christian.
Ghassan |
Ghassan (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 63.169.34.10
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 08:11 am: | |
CEW,
You continue to inspire my admiration for your intellectuality; hence I continue to frequent your web site. Thank you for your kind words.
Your first two questions are rather misleading, as derived from the context of my previous statements on the subject. I don’t think the US supports Israel because it is a Jewish state nor do I believe that Israel has adopted modern Western ideals that promote egalitarianism and secularism; but I’m in total agreement that the world has become too small for intolerance. The US, however, does support Jewish nationalism, and the US had once promoted Christian nationalism in my native country. Do you not perceive incongruence?
Obviously, I have signed on to American ideals or I wouldn’t have chosen the US for my future and for my family’s future; but I had also been on the receiving end of US foreign policy, and I’m not referring to US aid, which has sadly been linked to conflicting US interests.
Now to his credit, president Bush has gone out of his way to say the right things vis-à-vis the so-called ‘war on terror’ and Islam; but he has also appointed the likes of Daniel Pipes to the US peace institute! There are many instances where US words and deeds are in conflict, and not just where a Republican president is concerned. J. F. Kennedy’s administration was responsible for assisting the overthrow of Iraq’s democratic government, paving the way for Saddam Hussain’s ‘evil’ regime. Iran’s democratically elected government was toppled with the help of the CIA the previous decade, paving the way to the Shah’s oppressive rule, which led to the Islamic revolution in the seventies. The examples are many. So, yes, the US isn’t blame-proof; but how many Americans are aware of how the US is to blame for the continuing Middle East conflict? How many Americans realize that such failed US policies are still in effect? These policies have, in fact, become the centerpiece of US foreign policy, maginified by George Bush’s doctrine of preemption.
Nine Eleven was a crime against humanity; but it is becoming all too tragically clear that Nine Eleven also represented an opportunity for various elements of the US government to promote policies that have little to do with fighting ‘terrorism’. Though I was hopeful of a different outcome, I had opposed the invasion of Iraq because it appeared like the false adventure it has turned out to be. It seems that the failure of the US government to produce the evidence in support of its pretexts exceeded even my pessimistic expectations, and our government is continuing this failed course with a singular goal in a multi-ethnic environment.
I’d love to believe that our government is acting not only in our best interests but also in the best interests of those whose lives we are forever changing. Alas, I’m finding little support of such optimism, especially through our actions regarding the Middle East. And while you might not believe that the US aims to suppress an ethnicity or a religion, I do believe that promoting ethnic nationalism, as in Jewish nationalism, does in effect suppress other ethnicities and religions, not just Islam.
US veto of the UN resolution condemning the Israeli wall, US veto of the UN resolution condemning the Israeli attack on Syria, US military aid to Israel, in view of Israel’s use of fighter jets and attack helicopters on Palestinian civilian population centers, and more – all point to US government’s intent louder than any speech or proclamation. Anyone who ignores them will continue living in a fool’s paradise. US conflicting policies towards other regions around the world, as in withdrawing aid to African charities because they might somehow be associated with abortion, are less explosive but can be just as harmful as the US government’s Middle East policies.
Thanks for your thoughts on the subject, and my limited time does it little justice.
Ghassan |
pacwriter
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
974
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 08:39 am: | |
Fanaticism is fanaticism no matter the religiion. That is what I can state clearly. I do not support the Jews because they are Jews just as I do not support Muslims because they are Muslims.
Nor do I condemn Muslims because they are Muslims nor Jews because they are Jews. I find fault with those who force their religion on others and I find fault with those say there is no other way to worship but their way.
My perspective as a Christian is that God is a loving God and avails Himself to all who will come to Him.
Any person be they Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or Christian who takes innocent life for the sake of terrorism is a liar, they are not believers but followers of men.
I also find fault with OPEC nations, mainly the Arabs, who use their wealth to build palaces and allow their people to go hungry. They prefer to buy arms, build armies and support terrorists than to build schools for children (boys and girls).
I find fault with the nations of Europe who have no faith, no belief and who live on past colonial and imperial glories. They deisre to be world leaders but see no futher into the future than filling their own coffers.
As to Muslims, read yesterdays headlines. They are growing in fanaticism and hatred of Christians and Jews.
Americans live by simple ideas: Live and let live. Treat others as you want them to treat you. Do no harm. These are things the vast majority of Americans not only believe but practice. We have fanatics, we have greedy, we have the power hungry but these are in the small minority. Unfortunate for our nation, these people find leadership positions as well as corporate business positions. I do not make apology for these for each nation has their share.
The richest corporations in the world are controlled by Europeans. If there are complaints about the state of the world, attack those corporations. Governments of nations are little more than puppets. Before you say, "Yes and they are Zionist" check the board of directors. Do your homework and you will find Dutch, Swiss, French, Belgium and English all without Jewish names.
Dear Ghassan, it is money that rules. It is money that creates power and yields power. It is money that makes or breaks nations as well as religions.
In this new century, humanity will either get past money or cease to exist. The future is too bleak to contemplate.
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Ghassan (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 63.169.34.10
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 01:33 pm: | |
Dear pacwriter,
You obviously misread me. I explicitly stated that Zionists include Christians and Jews:
“There is a common element among Zionists, Christians and Jews alike, which betrays their fanaticism.”
There are a handful of Muslims I consider Zionist; but Zionists would not wield so much power without the very resourceful Christian base in the United States. Jews should particularly fear Christian Zionists, for their beliefs don't particularly bode well for Jews in precipitating the Apocalypse.
I don’t necessarily share your views on much of what you’ve written; but I did want to clarify this salient point. I hope to elaborate more; but if I don't have time today, I probably can't till next week.
In respectful disagreement, Ghassan.
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Wayfaring Stranger (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 198.88.216.34
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 04:36 pm: | |
BTW folks, why does Israel deserve that plot of land?
Because their tribal GOD told them so 4000 years ago?
That is certainly something to base foreign policy on.
In that case, the Italians owe me a plot of land in Wales for the Romans destroying the Celtic folk there.
Conversely, Islam is a faith founded by a soldier at the point of his curved blade. Islamic ideas still spread the same way, on a river of blood.
The Prophet gave the tribes of Arabia a faith and a unifying language etc. They had nada but tribal dieties like Baal or Astaroth before this. Besides, all Allah is IS the moon god SIN.
the reason the Arabs hate us is because of the Jews. That is no lie.
No more Americans should die for this joke.
Christians are silly to support the Jewish state...they do so not out of any love, but out of a foolish thought that a Zionist state will hasten the return of Christ.
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Harry Simenon
Awareness Member
Post Number:
19
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 05:27 pm: | |
For the record: I do not believe in any God, but I do respect any one who does.
I have spent some time in Israel, the Israelis were kind to me.
When I traveled to the Arab side of Jerusalem, the Israelis warned me for the Arabs.
I have spent some time with the Arabs, they were also kind to me.
When I went back to Israel they gave me the same warnings about the Israelis, as the Israelis had given me about the Arabs.
The same happened to me when I was in North Ireland, only replace Israelis by protestants, and Arabs by Catholics.
What I am trying to say, is that it is probably in the nature of the humans, only to recognize the things someone else does wrong, and not the things you do wrong yourself.
The differences between people, are usually only trivial things, like clothing, food, a certain way to do things, etcetera. Like someone mentioned before on this board, (can’t remember whom?) one should try to see what we all have in common, and not that much what we differ.
Most people in this world love their children, and do not kill or hurt anyone, regardless of their religion.
Pacwriter,
Reading your posts, I suddenly realized I am a European.
It is true that Europe became rich by plundering other countries. Very few people will deny that. Actually, the Europeans sold slaves (often rounded up by Arabs and African tribes,) to America, slaves who helped America to become rich too! Europe has a “rich” history of atrocities. Although many happened in the past, we Europeans should not forget it.
You say: “We are the biggest, the richest, but also the most generous.”
Just a detail: but the US are not the biggest, that is still the Russian federation with 17.1 million square Km, (for mile, that is Km divided by 2.5?)
The US is 9.6, like China.
Maybe you mean the amount of people? But that would be China: 1.3 billion, followed by India: 1 billion. The US: about 300 million.
So what do you mean by “biggest?”
The richest, as in money? That is quite possible according to the World Bank.
The most generous?
You say you find faults with many countries, and that no other country can come close to the US amount of humanitarian aid.
I do not believe that the US is that much better than the rest of the world.
I think that sending food is not the only way to support other countries. I suppose that the costs of food the US sends is paid with the $9 billion the US spends annually on foreign aid.
According to the Washington report, the US is spending $3 billion a year at least on foreign aid, only for Israel. This is one third of the US total amount of foreign aid! The people of Israel are not hungry, so there has to be another reason to spend this money. One mentioned in the report is strategic intentions and weapon testing, and funneling weapons through Israel to other countries.
You make it look like Europe is not doing anything to end suffering. According to the foreign-aid map of the World Bank, Europe has the same color as the US, AND Australia, AND Saudi Arabia! (A Muslim country) Even Russia is paying, although not as much as the West, but I believe they have more problems than we do.
I do not believe that “the” Muslims are growing in fanaticism and hatred of Christians and Jews, nor do I believe that all Americans think they are better than the rest of the world. There are fanatics AMONG the Muslims, among the Christians, Jews, Americans, Europeans and everywhere.
I am under the impression that you think that Americans are different from all other people. I am referring to: “Americans live by simple ideas: Live and let live, Treat others, as you want them to treat you.” Maybe this is not an American, but a human trade? I stayed with Bedouins in Egypt, they could have said that too.
You state that the European nations have no faith and no believe. What do you mean by that? Freedom of religion? On what facts do you base the statement that the European nations see no other future than filling there own coffers?
You also state that the biggest companies in the world rule the governments, and that Europeans control these companies. Does that really mean that there are no Americans controlling a few of those big corporations? What corporations do you mean?
You said that if the US stopped funding the UN, there wouldn’t be a UN.
The US did not pay its contribution to the UN for several years, so I suppose that this means that the UN can exist without US support. I really don’t think that all power should be with one nation. That is why we have the UN. But if its members do not accept the UN advice, like the US regarding the war in Iraq, than what is the use of the UN? Why should other countries listen to the UN, if the US doesn’t?
If we talk about liberating the people in Iraq, there are many people around the world, which are not free! Why do we not go and liberate them, like the Tibetans for instance? I have seen myself what the Chinese did to them during the riots in 1989. I will tell you why: there is nothing for the Western world to gain, and too much to lose! (We do not want any trouble with China! Atomic weapons and 1.3 billion people! And there is nothing we can use in Tibet.)
You wrote: “Would the world be better without a United States of America? I doubt it, that is why there is a forming of an European United States.”
I do not think that Europe is linked to the US in that way. Uniting means profit for all. (Not only in money of-course!) It is that simple.
There were smaller units already in the past, like the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg formed the Benelux. Norway, Denmark and Sweden formed a unit as well. But I do not think we do this to become a second US.
Now the US and Europe can go on accusing each other of having caused/not solving the problems in the world. I believe it is the West, which is America AND Europe, who became rich as they plundered and manipulated other countries. It is a mess in many countries, because the WEST disturbed them. In their response to us, they often go over the edge, which is wrong, but it has its causes. Now we can proclaim how proud we are on our neatly polished countries/states, civilizations, and our riches, and ridicule the others, but is that right?
Maybe it is better to stop being Americans, Europeans, Arabs and whatever, and start to consider ourselves as being world citizens, who have to deal with world problems. ALL of us!
Now I feel like I am a world citizen again, instead of only a European.
You know what we need? A bunch of evil aliens to attack us! Those green old-fashion ones, with the trumpet noses and antenna’s on their heads. How easily would we forget our silly differences! We would fight side by side, all countries and all religions!
You know what? I am going to E-mail them today!
See you all on the battlefield in space!
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pacwriter
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
978
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 06:20 pm: | |
The facts and figures are there if you are willing to gather ALL the facts and figures.
I am "an ugly American" and am willing to live with that label. There seems to be no part of the world Americans are not thought of in those terms. Until they need a handout or defending. We are tired of being the world's policeman. We are tired of being blamed for every evil in the world. And we are tired of those who look down their noses at us as being inferior.
I for one would like to bring all the troops home. Stop participating in the UN. And build the biggest defense possible. Close the borders to ALL immigrants even those who risk death to live here. If the world hates us so much, we need to let them fend for themselves.
I'm all for letting the Eureopean Union take over leadership of the free world. I'm all for the UN being the world's policeman. I'm all for someone else feeding the starving countries of North Korea, Kenya, Ethopia, Niger, Nigeria etc. I'm all for the French and Germans fighting AIDS in South Africa. I'm all for Japan making the South Seas safe from pirates. And Russia can do without the few pitiful dollars the US sends.
If the citizens of the USA ever gain the power to veto government decisions, a lot of money would stay home. Troops would seldom see a foreign port. What has begun in California has the political old order scared and they should be! Oh, and as side note CNN censored and pollsters locked up!
this thread has unleased pent-up anger I've been holding for some time - thank you for the opportunity to vent.
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Fred Dungan
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
365
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 10:20 pm: | |
I like to vent, too. Thanks to CEW, we have a place to do it. As Americans, we have the right to be as ugly as we want to be. However, let's keep in mind that it's not often in our best interests to do so. And please don't forget that "what has begun in California" would not have happened were it not for an immigrant from Austria.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm
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Wayfaring Stranger (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 198.88.216.34
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2003 - 05:04 am: | |
Correct, Fred.
I also have the right not to give a flying f&%k what Ghassan thinks or believes. He drops this opening statement and I find it very amusing to say the least....considering it looks like he doesn't know his Koran very well.
"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)
"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)
"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)
"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)
"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)
"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)
Yeah sounds peaceful to me.
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Fred Dungan
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
366
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2003 - 11:06 pm: | |
I'm sure I could pick similar passages from the Old Testament.
http://www.fdungan.com/book.htm |
LaurieAnne
Unity Member
Post Number:
1055
Registered: 12-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 06:55 am: | |
Although I tend to rarely agree with anything that comes from Fred's mouth (no offense meant, Fred), I DO agree with his above statement.
In every single "holy" text, from the Dead Sea Scrolls, to the Bible, to the Koran, to whatever, and inclusive of Wiccan texts (which is my own personal choice), such things are said.
There is only one race on this planet: the human race. Yet, until all peoples believe this, there will be unrest. And it is painfully obvious that there is no way short of force to make all people believe the same thing. Therein lies the rub. You either learn to accept all people AND their differences, or you act upon your prejudices.
Backing silently out the door of religious and political discussions as I was raised that both are topics to avoid in conversation,
LA
LaurieAnne
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com |
Harry Simenon
Awareness Member
Post Number:
20
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 02:55 pm: | |
I agree with Fred and LaurieAnne to some extent.
In most religious scrolls are negative comments about non-believers. Most religious people do not follow their scriptures to the letter, luckily. Only in Boedhist teachings I have not found such statements yet. An extremist Boedhist would probably kill him/herself at most, not wanting to be a burden to any being.
I strongly agree that there are only one people, only most of them do not realise, and suspect the others to be extremely different from themselves.
The only thing I do not agree with LaurieAnne, is to avoid religious and political discussions.
These discussions do stir up lots of anger and emotion, but there is nothing wrong with some emotions. It is way better than slumbering prejudices. I must admit though, that it might not be a good idea to have these discussions in a bar, after a certain amount of alcohol. A forum like this is an excellent place. You read a post, get angry and write, or get angry, think it over and then write, it is all possible. I hope that everybody will think about each-others opinion, which already is useful.
I do not pretend to have all the facts. But if you indicate what your sources are, I will gladly study them. I doubt it though, that any of us might be able to gather all the facts. We might succeed in gathering quite a few, maybe enough for a fair point of view.
I do not think that Americans are “ugly,” or do I look down on them. I can not speak for all the other Europeans, but I doubt it that I am an exception. There are quite a few Europeans that do not agree with all of the US its policies though, and there are also a lot of Europeans that do not agree with all European policies. I do not believe that Americans are hated all over the world. I do not think that America is responsible for every evil in the world.
I do not believe that America should have the leadership over the world, nor should Europe or any other continent or country. I do not believe that Europe is planning to take over this world leadership. The world leadership should be in the hands of ALL nations! So should any “police force” be. The weight of Power is too heavy to rest on one pair of shoulders.
I DO believe that America should acknowledge that they made mistakes, and try to put them right and avoid them in the future. All nations make mistakes, one should learn from these mistakes.
One should not confuse criticism with hatred!
This “us against the rest of the world” feelings must have roots I am not familiar with, I would like to hear more about this. I did hear it once before though: “everywhere we go they hate us!”
I can only tell you a few personal anecdotes.
My friend’s American uncle once came to Europe. At my friend’s home, the remote control had broke down, and they had never bothered to buy a new one or have it repaired. The American watched how my friend got up to change the channel.
“In America,” he then spoke, “we have this little boxes with switches on it, you do not have to get up to change the channel, and you can even change the volume!”
“Really?” replied my friend, “that is amazing!”
When I visited Canada and the American West Coast, someone explained to me what a computer was:
“You have something that looks like a TV, do you know what a TV is? And in front of that is something that looks like a typewriter.”
I was tempted to ask what a typewriter was.
Another remark from an American I have met in Thailand: “the food is good here, the Americans were here.”
From another trip: “do you have American bathrooms?”
I suppose that the rest of the world washes them selves in a river.
Recently I followed some programming lessons in Belgium, they have AZERTY keyboards there, instead of QWERTY. Some of the codes to detect a pressed key did not work properly in the program.
The teacher told us that he had reported this bug to the American software company. He got a letter back, reporting that it wasn’t a bug. It was because of the AZERTY keyboard. He had to live with it, as it will not be fixed, (buy a QWERTY keyboard.)
Now things like this will not make anybody hate Americans, it did not make me hate Americans. But it does make me curious what Americans think about Europeans, specially after I read that Europeans are behind corporations that control governments, and are to blame for the misery in the world. And that America is not to blame for anything.
What is your opinion about this? And of-course I would not mind hearing some Euro-anecdotes.
By the way, what happened in California?
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Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2355
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 03:47 pm: | |
All I really know about anything is that most of my ancestors came to North America from Ireland, Scotland, England, and Germany. The Irish ancestor married a Cherokee woman whose people had lived on this continent for thousands of years. Her people were herded up like cattle in the southeastern area of North America and treated worse than most farmers and ranchers would treat their livestock. They were driven by people of caucasian European descent from the mountains and forests of their native home and plunked into the dry environment of Texas and Oklahoma.
My Cherokee great grandmother was strong willed, believed in one God but did not call that deity God. She refused to live on the reservation, fled to Kansas where she lived beside a river. When she met my black haired, black eyed, bronze skinned Irish great grandfather, she thought he was an indian who spoke a language different from hers. They had twelve children, one was my paternal grandmother.
This wasn't really on topic, but all this talk of other nationalities and their perceptions came as a firm reminder of my roots. Only one fifth of me is a genuine American. The Cherokee part.
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Fred Dungan
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
368
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 09:28 pm: | |
The immigrant from Austria won the California election, proving that we aren't nearly as ugly as we are made out to be. If it weren't for Europe, I wouldn't be doing very well. My first novel, The Gospel According to Condo Don, after being rejected by a number of U.S. publishing houses, was printed as a paperback by Domhan Books in Northern Ireland (http://www.domhanbooks.com, http://www.fdungan.com/sent.htm). When an article, So Long, Savannah!, I had written proved too hot to be published in America, I sent it to a magazine in Paris where it proved to be a big hit (http://www.fdungan.com/savannah.htm) and eventually made such a stink that it eventually caught the attention of Congress (reference the Tybee Bomb article by Matthew Teague which starts on page 228 of the June, 2003 edition of GQ).
http://www.fdungan.com/publish.htm |
Ghassan (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 63.169.34.10
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 07:56 am: | |
I have no allegiance to religion. Like someone stated, most religions suffer from intolerance of other faiths; but I like to base my opinion on facts. Like many on thread, I limit my allegiance to humanity in all its glorious failings; but Islam has been a subject of much distortion by hateful bigots, and the Wayfaring Stranger is no exception. I wish I didn't have to waste my time on this exercise, but nobody seems too keen on exposing hateful ignorance.
I sought two sources, out of curiosity, that translated the Koran for the Internet. Anyone can type Koran on Google to verify. I'm no Islamic scholar, so I like to verify quotes that portend to come from the Koran. I found two translations. I will compare the passages quoted by the Stranger to the two sources on the Internet. The first passage I will use for comparison, following the purported passage provided by the stranger, comes from a translation by E.H. Palmer. The second comes from three translations provided by USC. This way one can compare differences in translation.
Using the stranger's quotes, I was able to find the alleged passages being quoted, assuming that the first number represents the Sura (chapter), of which there are 114, and that the second number represents the passage being quoted. I will provide the name of the Sura following the Stranger's quote. I will italicize the Stranger's quotes in this exercise.
The stranger wrote, and please not the Stranger's [] as they are the Stranger's own interpretation:
"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)
Sura 9, The Immunity:
[9.73] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
Sura 9, Repentance or Dispensation (even the titles seem to vary):
009.073
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
The Stranger quoted, again note the [emphasis]:
"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)
Sura 47, Muhammad, note no mention of jihad:
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
Sura 47, Muhammad:
047.004
YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
PICKTHAL: Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.
SHAKIR: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
OK, last quote provided by the Stranger:
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)
Sura 5, The Dinner Table:
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
[5.34] Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Sura 5, The table (or the Table Spread):
005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
005.034
YUSUFALI: Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
So several things come out of this brief exercise: God (Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh etc.) is both vengeful and merciful, the Stranger is selling distortions, and translations of the Koran might differ. While there is no mistaking the obvious distortions used by hate groups, as in this case, against any religion, the examples that the Stranger provided are more subtle than most but are just as noxious as hateful distortions of the Talmud.
The stranger's quotes, for example, contain insertions that are deceitful like [all non-Muslims] and jihad [holy war]. In the first instance, unbelievers don't mean "all non-Muslims", as Muslims recognize Christians and Jews as believers. An unbeliever, in the Islamic context, refers to an idol worshiper. I espouse tolerance of all people's beliefs, but I do find hypocrites of all creeds rather noxious. In the second instance, Daniel Pipes, among many hateful bigots, is attempting to distort the meaning of Jihad, as the vast majority of Muslims and Arabic-speaking people use it. Equating jihad with warfare is very convenient for such bigots. I don't have time to go into this topic, but I am including it in a long research paper on the subject.
The Stranger also distorts by omission, as in omitting Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
One has the right to hate, criticize, and foul up a discussion if one so chooses; but one should at least do so with clarity and without resorting to lies. Mind you, a hatemonger would be out of business if it were compelled to remain truthful.
I wish I could have spent this time writing something else.
Later, Ghassan |
Andrew (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 198.88.216.34
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 08:10 pm: | |
Ah, but you are laboring under the illusion that the Stranger gives a damn about your opinion. You how much time you have wasted in this exercise. All he did was cut and paste. He is screwing with you, Ghasson. Kind of like you screwed with us all to get this going. Like most guys in this dorm, he is a character. Take a chill pill and have a beer.
Hate? You started this by stopping in and trying to push folks buttons. What made you stop by a writers group to start a religious discussion? Or was it political?
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Fred Dungan
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
371
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 08:54 pm: | |
Andrew is a button-pusher extraordinaire. Too bad it is not a marketable skill.
http://www.fdungan.com/publish.htm |
LaurieAnne
Unity Member
Post Number:
1058
Registered: 12-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2003 - 09:29 pm: | |
Andrew,
Whereas your name is not a familiar one here, Ghassan has been here before. There was another thread that began this conversation, and all you have to do to verify that is to read through a few of the threads here.
We try very hard around here to have intellectual conversations, avoiding the squabble. As writers, it is a good exercise in both research and education. How do you learn about other people unless you start asking questions? How do you find out how someone else would react to a situation without stating the situation?
Everyone here is entitled to their own opinion, including you (which appears to be that Ghassan was "srewing with" us). Whereas I do not agree with you, that is my right, and my choice. My opinion is that Ghassan was rightfully offended by the common association of the word "terrorist" with those of Middle Eastern decent.
The main part of this discussion has been centered around countering that wide-held assumption and tolerance. Religion will always tend to enter into a discussion such as this because religion as the driver for terrorism has always been the one to spend the most time in the news.
The unibomber was a terrorist, and his attacks had absolutely nothing to do with religion, but (it's been a while, so forgive me if I am incorrect) with a disgust of the United States government. (Again, I will not say "American" as this term is not correct in its usage.) Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist, and his attack was not based on religion either. Unfortunately, the media spends more time on those attacks with any sort of religious tie.
Okay, so I have tried about 4 times now to post a coherent thought and backspaced over paragraphs. It's way past my night-night time.
Enjoy your conversations, ladies and gentlemen.
LA
LaurieAnne
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com |
sophie simonet
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
684
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 09:48 am: | |
Responding to Harry's request for Euro anecdotes... My first job in the States coming from England eleven years ago was managing the international distributors and offices for a mainframe software company. I heard a lot of peculiar stuff from Americans that surprised me, from "Do you have fax machines in England?" [You're such a backward country] "Did you live in London or Liverpool?" [It's got to be one or the other] "Do you know the so-and-so's?" [The UK is so small after all] to "No, I've never been overseas. We have everything here in the US" [And we've got Epcott if we ever get curious about what's out there]. My observations are that Americans as a whole are incredibly insular. The average American does not comprehend that Britain comprises not only England, but Scotland, Ireland, and Wales as well, and that (shock, horror) probably more people per capita in Europe than in the US have cell phones, and that many, many of the great inventions we all enjoy derive from the British (yes, it's true!). The education level in this country is not on a par with Europe. I'm sorry, it just isn't. And the lack of socialized medicine in a so-called civilized nation is, to my mind, unconscionable. Americans are conditioned to think otherwise, obviously. As a US citizen having spent many years living in both the States and in Europe, I think I have a balanced view.
;-) |
Fred Dungan
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
376
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 10:51 pm: | |
The fact that you are here rather than there and that you chose to become a citizen speaks volumes. Your comments resemble those of Allister Cook who has been reporting about America for as long as I can remember. We owe a lot to Britain. The British have been true friends who have stood beside us through thick and thin.
Would you please elaborate on the differences in education and health care? I thought that the working class youths in Great Britain had to leave school due to economic circumstances at 16 and that socialized medicine left a lot to be desired.
http://www.fdungan.com |
mark_y1 (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 65.148.106.238
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 11:48 am: | |
Well for one thing Oxford costs about $1600. Compare that to Harvard at $23,000. As for socialized medicine; people here are striking over that. Soon everyone will be marching for it. Only a few can afford healthcare, and the numbers are dwindling steadily. |
sophie simonet
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
685
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 12:15 pm: | |
Fred, I was born here (Bloomington, IN) and lived here first--hence my US citizenship. Moved to Florida because of the climate. Don't miss the British weather or the warm beer! I believe sixteen-year-olds have the opportunity to leave school in the UK and find full-time employment. As for health care over there, my personal experience is that I had an appendectomy (Oxford hospital, barely a scar), my first baby (3 days' stay in hospital), a specialized breast exam (to check out a benign lump), serial doctor's visits for bronchitis, one wisdom tooth extraction...all free and no waiting. Ten years ago it was about $1 per prescription in the UK. When I took my young son to the ER here in Florida with his bone sticking out of his toe, we waited three hours for a doctor to see him. Can't remember the cost because I had insurance, but I do remember all the forms I had to fill out. There are, no doubt, pros and cons with every country. |
Fred Dungan
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
378
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 11:37 pm: | |
Thanks, Sophie. To tell you the truth, I'm not overly impressed by our health care system either. I do believe, however, that educational opportunities are better here than in the United Kingdom. The taxpayers sent my son to 4 years at West Point and are currently paying for him to get a law degree at UCLA. He also learned to pilot a helicopter and went to Airborne school at public expense. Contrast this to Great Britain where prospective officers get 1 or 2 years at Sandhurst. I am very grateful for what the government has done for my son. They made a good investment. He believes in this country and our way of life and has done tours of duty in Bosnia and Kosovo. The United States Military Academy at West Point (along with the U.S. Naval Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, and the Air Force Academy) is open on a competitive basis to all citizens regardless of gender, ethnicity or economic circumstances. But it doesn't end there. Almost anyone can obtain scholarships, grants and/or loans to attend the college of their choice. The United States has more people from foreign countries attending institutions of higher learning than does any other nation. The numbers speak for themselves. When it comes to higher education, America has what the world wants.
http://www.fdungan.com/son.htm |
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