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Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
739
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 11:42 am: |   |
I received an email yesterday from Writer's Digest about a contest for Self Published books to be entered into their annual competition. I wanted to know what status PA/America House books come under and IF they would be elegible for the entry. Below is from their website about the contest and its regulations and guidelines:
<<The Writer's Digest International Self-Published Book Awards
The 11th Annual Writer's Digest International Self-Published Book Awards is now accepting entries. New & Bigger Prizes. More than $10,000 in prizes! Enter Today.
11th Annual International Book Awards Guidelines & Entry Form
Also, congratulations to all the participants in the 10th Annual Writer's Digest International Self-Published Book Awards.
The complete list of winners and entrants from the 9th Annual competition
The complete list of winners and entrants from the 10th Annual competition
The complete list of judges for the 10th Annual competition
Deadline: 12/15/2003
11th Annual Writer's Digest International Self-Published Book Awards
Co-sponsored by Book Marketing Works, LLC
CALL FOR ENTRIES
NOW MORE THAN $10,000 IN PRIZES!
DEADLINE: Monday, December 15, 2003
Win $2,500 in cash! Gain international exposure for your book! Catch the attention of prospective editors and publishers!
Writer's Digest is searching for the best self-published book of the past few years. Whether you're a professional writer, part-time freelancer, or a self-starting student, here's your chance to enter the only competition exclusively for self-published books!
THE PRIZES:
ONE GRAND PRIZE WINNER will be awarded $2,500 cash and promotion in Writer's Digest and Publishers Weekly, and marketing advice from self-publishing guru Dan Poynter with six hours of product and marketing consultation from Poynter Book shepherd Ellen Reid. Plus, the editors of Writer's Digest will endorse and submit 10 copies of the Grand Prize-Winning book to major review houses such as The New York Times and The Washington Post. In addition, Book Marketing Works, LLC will provide a one-year membership in Publishers Marketing Association, a customized Book Market Map Directory, guaranteed distribution to bookstores and libraries through Baker & Taylor, and a guaranteed review in Midwest Book Review.
9 FIRST-PLACE WINNERS will receive $500 cash and promotion in Writer's Digest. In addition, Book Marketing Works, LLC will provide guaranteed distribution to bookstores and libraries through Baker & Taylor, and a guaranteed review in Midwest Book Review.
Plus, all Grand Prize and First Place winners will receive book-jacket seals to promote the award-winning status of their book, promotion on the Writer's Digest Web site at writersdigest.com, a copy of The Complete Guide to Self-Publishing, 4th Edition and Jump Start Your Book Sales, both by Tom and Marilyn Ross, and a notable award certificate.
HONORABLE MENTION WINNERS will receive promotion in Writer's Digest and $50 worth of Writer's Digest Books.
All other entrants will receive certificates of participation. And, all entrants will receive a judge's critique and a listing with a link on the Writer's Digest Web site, provided an accurate URL is written on the Entry Form.
THE CATEGORIES:
Mainstream/Literary Fiction
Genre Fiction
Nonfiction
Inspirational (spiritual, New Age)
Life Stories (biographies, autobiographies, family histories, memoirs)
Children's and Young Adult books
Reference Books (directories, encyclopedias, guide books)
Poetry
Cookbooks
THE RULES:
1. The competition is open to all English-language self-published books for which the authors have paid the full cost of publication.
2. Entrants must send a printed and bound book. Entries will be judged primarily by content and writing quality. No photocopied or handwritten books are accepted. Production quality will determine the winner in the event of a tie.
3. All books published or revised and reprinted in 2001, 2002 or 2003 are eligible. (Writer's Digest may demand proof of eligibility of semifinalists.)
4. All books must be accompanied by an Official Entry Form. Photocopies of the Official Entry Form are acceptable. You may enter more than one book and/or more than one category; however, you must include a separate entry form and the additional fee for each entry.
5. Check, money order or credit card payment for the required judging fee of $100 for the first entry, $50 for each additional entry must accompany submissions.
6. All entries must be postmarked no later than Monday, December 15, 2003. All winners will be notified by March 31, 2004. If you wish to receive confirmation that your entry was received before the deadline, we recommend using certified mail or some other tracking method to send your entry.
7. Entries will be judged by experts in the subject or genre.
8. Judges reserve the right to withhold prizes in any category. Judges reserve the right to recategorize entries.
9. Books which have previously won awards from Writers Digest are not eligible.
10. Employees of F&W Publications, Inc. and Book Marketing Works, LLC and their immediate families are not eligible.
11. Writer's Digest is not responsible for the loss, damage or return of any books submitted to the competition.
ENTRY FEES:
First entry: $100
Additional entries: $50 each>>
So, Here is the question I posed to them:
<<Subj: WD Web Query: General question or comment
Date: 12/3/03 10:37:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: Cltvcoyote@aol.com
To: competitions@fwpubs.com
CC: Cltvcoyote@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)
From:
Claudia VanLydegraf
Cltvcoyote@aol.com
My book, "Notes from Nobody" was published by AmErica House/PublishAmerica in Aug 2001. It is a Non-Fiction story about my life as a birthmother who gave up and ultimately found her two adopted out babies, 35 years later. I would like to enter it into your Self Published contest that I just received the email about. However, I am not sure as to the status that your company feels, my book comes under, whether or not it is self published, or published by a traditional publisher. If it is considered self published, I would love to put it into the competition.
Could you please let me know what you and the judges feel is appropriate for my book, considering its method of publication. I am sure that you have heard of and know about PublishAmerica/AmErica House and have given this some thought in the past.
Thanks, and waiting to hear from you, I remain,
Sincerely yours,
Claudia VanLydegraf
Email: Cltvcoyote@aol.com>>
AND HERE IS THE ANSWER I RECEIVED BACK FROM THEM:
<<Subj: RE: WD Web Query: General question or comment
Date: 12/4/03 5:46:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: Competitions@fwpubs.com
To: Cltvcoyote@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)
Claudia: PublishAmerica is not one of the POD publishers that is accepted by this competition.
Terri Boes
Customer Service Representative>>
So are the books put out by PA/AmErica House the trolls of the underworld and IF that is so, what kind of recourse do any of us have? If we are not Self Published, or POD from their standpoint, and not traditionally published from anyone else's standpoint; where, oh where, do we fit in to the publishing business, and are all doors CLOSED to us, simply because we are not accepted into a fold category? I have known for quite some time about the POD controversy, and its after effects, on us as writers, and how the traditional publishing industry feels about us, but there should be an avenue that is open to us. It really seems to be a slap in the face from the people who should support us, if we are a POD, or from the other trads who should support us if we are traditionally published as PA says we are.
Just thought that I would share this with you all, and get your opinions.
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Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2472
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 01:42 pm: | |
I had a couple thoughts while reading your information. Excellent info by the way.
Number one specifies "self-published books for which the authors have paid the full cost of publication." Since we did not do that with PA, that would eliminate any PA author from entering.
Otherwise.....I think all the better known subsidy presses are POD. 1stBooks is and so is iUniverse. So they are both subsidy AND POD.
As a competition, they lost me when they charged a $100 submission fee. I have a big problem with that. No wonder they can afford to give generous prizes and adverise the winners in expensive publications.
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pacwriter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1076
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 01:52 pm: | |
What to do?
I think the best thing to do is get as far away from PA as possible. Do whatever it takes to get out of the contract and get print rights back. Then, edit the work and submit to other publishers.
PA, as we have all found out, is a sink hole of talent and money.
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
740
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 02:15 pm: | |
Laurel,
The thing that stuck out in my mind and thoughts when I got their email answer back was, THEY don't accept entries from this particular POD, even though they and every one else says we are the same as 1st books and IUniverse, in reality, they are seperating us from that classification by the stipulation about the book having to be published through our own funds, i.e., we didn't have to put up any MONEY for this project, (other than our friends and families footing the publishing costs), and that since that distinction was made, we are thereby excluded from the competition as being traditional in that sense. But then they don't give us the recognition as being traditional on any other side of the business, they won't review us, let us be part of the media ads, promote us in any form, and keep us listed as being a quasi-vanity published book. Kind of a double sling and walking both sides of the fence, if you see what I mean. It would make a lot of sense for them to clear up their position on what we are, and thereby open up one side or the other for us to belong in.
That was all I was trying to show. If Writer's Digest and all the other companies that are in that same position to judge our books and help or hinder us in our efforts at selling and getting reviews, etc, then they should at least make their positions clear and to the point when it comes to what we are, POD, Self Published, Vanity, or Traditional. It might open up doors and windows of opportunity if THEY had a clear cut idea as to the reality of how to treat our books.
Claudia
(Message edited by cltvcoyote on December 04, 2003) |
C. E. Winterland
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1261
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 06:17 pm: | |
Claudia,
Believe me when I say I feel your frustration and hear your position loud and clear.
However, bear in mind that organizations such as this are most likely broken down into departments, segments, or at least comittees that run the different bits of the whole operation.
In short, I think what you are seeing is a case of "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing". I'm sure you could stick it onto Writer's Digest as a case of trying to eliminate PA authors from all angles, but I really don't think that is their intention.
The fact of the matter is Publish America has designed itself and its operations so that everything flows toward them while they are able to sit back and say, "No... we don't charge up front fees, we are not a vanity press." The problem is (and has always been) that everyone accepts that on the surface, and it's not until you've given them all of your life's blood that all of the little details of what it means to be published by them (such as the one you state above) begin to surface - THEY certainly aren't going to tell you that non-returnable books are shunned almost wholesale by stocking booksellers, they aren't going to tell you that a price 10 to 25% higher than the standard retail cost for any other book of the same page length and format will make it hard to sell to the people on the streets whom you have to stop long enough so that you can take the book out of the trunk of your car to pitch to them (in fact they go so far as to ignore the fact that you're an intelligent person and tell you exactly the opposite), they aren't even going to tell you that the only sales you will likely see will be a very small percentage of the infamous 'friends and family' list and whatever you can drum up by directing people to your specific link on amazon.com or barnesandnoble.com - because people browsing those sites aren't going to find your book. They aren't going to tell you any of that before you sign their contract - and they don't, and that is why they have disgruntled authors.
Publish America set out to be a legal business that could make money hand over fist - and they are doing it. It's success to them. Never mind the poor souls trampled, crushed, flayed, threatened, battered, slandered, libeled or any of that... it's the way of business. PA's authors are merely cogs in the machine. If one turns out faulty, replace it, it's as simple as that (and there are a LOT of cogs out there ripe for the picking... more fuel for the machine).
CEW
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Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
741
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 06:57 pm: | |
CE, and ALL,
All of what you are saying is true, and I am, as you well know, well aware of everything stated. It just really gets to me sometimes, when I see something like a place at Writer's Digest that I would like to possibly enter my work and get turned down flat for something that they haven't decided is in their scope of handling. Or they have come to a decision that really isn't warranted and turned everything down flat because it doesn't fit one criteria or another and is sort of in-between, thus hurting all of those in-betweeners, like me and everyone else who is associated with PA.
Just call me frustrated today...... oh well. It's grey and dull today and I guess I am feeling that more than usual for some reason.
Claudia
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Fred Dungan
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
442
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 01:43 am: | |
CE,
Thanks for the in-depth analysis. I appreciate that you attempted to do this dispassionately, but cannot begin to understand why anyone who has suffered as much at the hands of PublishAmerica as you have would want to approach it from the viewpoint of a disinterested bystander. It reminds me of writing in the third person, which I have always regarded as approaching the surreal. I definitely can't fault you for doing this as I have had ample evidence of your good intentions. What I can do, however, is to take issue with the facts. It is evident that PublishAmerica did not "set out to be a legal business." From the very beginning they set out to pervert the law - that is, to hold the writers who write for them to the letter of the law while they, themselves, thumbed their collective noses at it. PublishAmerica has never had respect for anyone or anything other than money. Either they need to change their ways or go to jail where they can't do harm to others.
http://www.fdungan.com/publish.htm
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Harry Simenon
Awareness Member
Post Number:
32
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 09:51 am: | |
I think that PA tries to stay within the law as much as they have to, but this doesn’t say anything about their intentions. It does mean that it will be difficult to do anything about them.
Many of the “pirates” do not want to be saved, shouldn’t we leave them to their dream? And only respond to them who call: “HELP”?
Many people know how it works, but many more do not, or do not want to know.
PA created something between POD and normal publisher. The problems this causes for the authors are obviously not their concern! What can WE do?
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Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
744
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 10:04 am: | |
Fred,
You missed the point that I was trying to make. I wanted to put my book into a contest that was for Self Published writers, according to the guidelines. Writer's Digest stated that my work was not what they wanted as it was from not the RIGHT KIND of POD. Everyone tells us, as writers whose books were published by PA, that we are POD, yet when you want to get it into somewhere, that very source who is deeming your book not traditional in the way it was published, turns it down as being not the RIGHT KIND of POD. First these places, Writer's Digest, the bigger houses, the New York Times bestseller lists, the reviewers of lots of large papers, bookstores (when asked to stock the books), lots of other places that I can't name right now, but over the years have told each and every one of us that we are-have POD books only, then when you want to get recognition from a place that says they want Self Publsihed, Vanity, POD type works, turns you down, saying you are NOT the right kind of POD........
It seems to me that the rules always bend several ways whenever the outfit, person, entitiy, doing the judging wants to see whatever they want to see, not what the real truth is about this issue. If we are POD, then we are POD all the way, If we are Vanity, then we should be classed as Vanity, If we are Self Published, we should have the same enjoyments as all the other self published authors out there and be able to enter our books into that contest, if we want to. What I was simply trying to get to is that NO ONE really KNOWS what the difference is and NO ONE wants to make the distinction clear to anyone on the receiving end of the judgment. IF my book and yours and everyone else's who is published by PA is "traditional" then we ought to have the same review capabilities, contests to enter, places to stock books (without the stigma of the no-return clause), etc, and if we are only truly POD, then why can't we get our books into a contest like the one I offered up Notes to.
This offing was not an attack or even an observance of PA and what they are or what kind of business they run, only an observance of the fact that NO ONE else wants our books for whatever reason, seeming to me that the mere presence of a PA book sullies the others in the pile. It was not meant to spark your anti-PA war songs.
Claudia |
Todd Hunter
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
988
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 04:16 pm: | |
As an aside, I wonder if they're attempting to separate Publish-On-Demand from Print-on-Demand, the age old "which POD do you mean?" question. You did state that the contest was for "self-published" writers.
Perhaps, since the contest was technically for "self-published" writers, companies which profess themselves to be "Publish-On-Demand" (vanity, author pays the costs) would be considered the "right kind of POD", meaning that the author technically did pay for publication, therefore they are self-published.
Since the publishing company states they are Print-on-Demand (whether that is or isn't true is another argument for another day), we would not be officially "self-published" authors, and thus exempt from the contest. Even if we're footing the bill for reselling copies of our book, just as a self-published author would do, the official line is that it doesn't cost the author money to get published.
Just my two cents...and perhaps reworded something already said...who knows?
On another aside, I still have people who want my book...the numbers are just few and far between...and a majority of sales are made personally...until I get the sequel out, through a different publisher (or maybe self-pubbed), it's just something I'll have to live with...at least until I sell the remainder of my book stocks...heh...
Oh well... |
Brian T. Seifrit
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
605
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 06:02 pm: | |
I think you're right on the money Todd, POD (Print on Demand) as we all know doesn't charge the author, but POD (Publisher on Demand)does. What has to happen is we need a new name for (Print On Demand)or (Publisher On Demand)that way we'd all know which is which. I've had an experience where because I said I published through a POD, people thought I had paid to get published, which of course I didn't... it's a stigma that will probably always exsist until one or the other changes its name... We have to live with it, I guess until then. I tell people that Print on Demand doesn't charge, but Publisher on Demand does... but they're both POD, so people assume we paid to get published... Talk to ya...
Brian T.
http://seifrit.ineedabook.net |
C. E. Winterland
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1263
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 08:44 pm: | |
Regarding the difference between POD versus POD... Yes, technically the "print" in one and the "Publish" in the other may mean different things.. but the only real distinction is by people attempting to say they are not a vanity press.
It's a crock if you ask me. POD is print on demand - it's actually a technology, in reality. I wouldn't confuse myself with any kind of distinction between print on demand and publish on demand. Print on demand is printing technology, and publish on demand is the same thing as saying "vanity press", as described above.
Don't get too bogged down in the new technology - it really canges only one thing... the ability to print small quantities relatively inexpensively. Those who use it all fall under the same old tried and true buckets they have always fallen into... There is traditional, small press, and vanity/self-publish. Just to make a point that's been made already... ALL of these types of publishers use Print on Demand technology - they'd be foolish not to take advantage of it. In the same way you would rather drive a car to work if your commute is 30 miles, but you might just as well use a bicycle if it's only one or two.
Print on Demand has made it cheap and easy to print small runs of books. The machines I've seen will print, sort, collate, and bind documents VERY fast with a keystroke or two, because the actual document lives in a computer as a file like any other on your computer that can be readily printed. The initial setup and storage of that file is all it takes - then you put it into the machine and off you go with hundreds of copies, or perhaps 2. This is the instant gratification method of printing.
Offset printing is what is used for large runs, and it's very inexpensive per item. But you must run many of them because the set up time is costly and lengthy, and you can only run that job once it's set up, to run another means another costly, lengthy set up. Offset printing is like running a mill. You set up, pump out a bazillion units, enough so that you won't have to do all THAT again for a while, and then you set up for the next bazillion of something else. It's the manufactory method of printing.
If you really want thousands of copies, you are going to want to go to your neighborhood offset printer (at least you will once you compare the price to that same amount from your local POD printer).
Why do you think it's so expensive to go to Kinko's and copy stuff? It's a one-off operation, and they charge you for it. Sure you can get some small discounts... but not much, believe me (I was just there tonight and my eyes popped out and rolled on the floor until the whole place was crawling around trying to find them when they told me the price just to make 10 hot tape bindings on a 38 page document). I could have had the copies made AND bound at my local POD printer for less than it cost me just to bind those. Unfortunately it was an emergency and POD shop had sent their 2nd shift home already by the time the emergency hit.
Again, though it's been said,
Traditional publishers are printing fewer books in HUGE quantities using offset printing - thus mass-market paperbacks are cheap (6 to 12 dollars). They use Print on Demand printers or technology (I assume that some have their own printing, and some farm the operation out as sub-contract work) for their backlist books to keep some on the shelves to sell.
Small presses do much the same sort of thing, likely more closely dependent on sales and forecasts than marketing strategies.
Vanity presses might use either as well - though since the author/customer is buying all the copies (and probably not on any 30-90 day payment terms), the runs will fall into the POD type, though not necessarily. If I wanted to print 5000 copies of a book myself and have someone handle the ISBN for me, it would likely be an offset job through a vanity publisher.
If I may say something that might not have been said around here before... the pricing breakdown on POD printed literature is pretty substantial at the low end... for a 150 page book the price difference in total cost on an order of 25 to 50 is a savings of about $100 - and the POD printer I work with works in run totals, not price per each, by the way. The savings actually INCREASES the more you order until you reach about 500 copies... then the total tends to level out a bit and the difference between the price per each of 300 and the price of 400 may only be pennies or dimes. The POD printer I know has a sweet spot and it's dependent on their machine capacities... They can bang out 1000 copies, or 2000, but getting any higher than that in a single run is almost silly, because 1) it will take them a day to print and bind that many on one machine - which is 8 hours of capacity to do other jobs lost; and 2) the savings by going to the 'instant gratification' method is lost entirely, and you've crossed the threshhold where and offset printer could rip them out at much lest cost. Of course - that is the machines they have... which is this...
Xerox DocuTech 6135 Digital Publishing System
With electronic network server using Xerox Digipath Software
Print directly from IBM, MAC, or UNIX disks
ZIP removable disks
Reads Postscript and PCL printer languages
Built in halftone scanning
Electronic cut and paste
On line stitching and Hot Tape Binding
600 dpi resolution for excellent halftone and fine line reproduction.
The optional Roll-Feeder System for a continuous source of up to 50,000 cut sheets for 12 hours of continuous operation.
The optional Signature Booklet Maker for on-line production of books, manuals and reports.
Throughput of up to 135 pages per minute for maximum productivity.
Remote diagnostics with Xerox Service.
Print speed up to 135 ppm.
7,450 total sheet capacity for all paper trays.
Supports Windows 95/98, NT, Mac OS 7.6, Sun OS 4.1.3.
All operator settings are made with the push of a few buttons.
135 ppm... not bad  for about $85,000.00
The Docutech 6180 (180ppm) goes for about $160,000.00 (used, of course).
Anyhow... I guess this post got a little long - a total accident fed by my own curiosity, I assure you... but when you hear "POD", what is really meant is something like this printer.
CEW
|
Fred Dungan
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
443
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 10:43 pm: | |
We must not be in the same ballpark. Or perhaps one of us is playing hardball while the other is waiting for a slow underhand pitch that will never come.
They beat up on us because it is common knowledge in the publishing industry that PublishAmerica never goes to bat for its writers. Writer's Digest (or any other entity) can kick us out of the game whenever they want. Our manager, PublishAmerica, could care less.
One more time for the slow learners: PublishAmerica plays hardball. Smarts will not get you anywhere in this game. You either get it up or you forfeit.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm |
Matt Dinniman
Wandering Member
Post Number:
112
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 11:33 pm: | |
The problem presented in the original post in this thread has nothing to do with POD or POD technology. On the face, PA authors should not be accepted to this contest, and I agree with Writer Digest's decision. Self published = pay to publish. You don't pay to publish with PA. You just give up most the rights to the book for a dollar. Frankly, I'd take their refusal to accept you as an endorsement of being traditionally published.
The real problem here is the other side of the coin, which is the refusal of the publishing world to accept PA. The reason why PA isn't accepted as a traditional publisher is all about their reputation. Whether PA authors like it or not, PA has the worst reputation of all book publishers active today. For good reason, too, but that's a whole 'nother thread. Because of this, their authors--even if they've written excellent books--are shunned because they're not taken seriously. The manager of a local bookstore here in town told me he would flat-out not order any PA books, even if paid for up front.
I agree, it totally sucks for you. Personally, if I was in your shoes I'd make a serious attempt to get out of my PA contract. Pac did it. |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
745
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 12:27 am: | |
Matt,
That was in part of what I was trying to say, that to places like Writer's Digest and the likes, we are more on the "traditional" side and for that reason, we are not accepted in the self pub circles, aka vanity or POD, for all the hoopla, and notwithstanding any of PA's arguments to the positive, we are thought of more as traditional than maybe we should be. But then on that side of the coin, we are not accepted in those circles as a traditional by the traditional publishers because they think we suck as a group, no matter how good our books might or might not be. They just lump us into that category of an upstart publisher who doesn't give a rats about what they publish and everyone of us gets a bad rap because of that judgment call. Really a double edged sword, so to speak.
No matter how we want to think of our books, we are screwed if we want them to be POD, Vanity, self published, which because we don't actually pay up front for them to be printed, we aren't, ...and we are not traditional because of the PA business model and no return clause and several other things that we have no control over. So, where do we fit???? The answer that I am finding is that no matter what we want to fit into, we won't and can't and therefore no one can really get anything done with our books, on a larger scale, because of the double edged sword. Screwed, is what we are. And yes, I am looking into getting something done.
Claudia |
Steven Shrewsbury
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
423
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 07:07 am: | |
I agree with Fred's spoke in the wheel analogy. Fits it perfect.
I then wondered why they wouldn't release authors with more ease, since they are obviously easy to replace.
Is it the possibility that if the author does good elsewhere, they will still turn a profit on the curious who want to see what else said writer has done?
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Frank P. Baron
Awareness Member
Post Number:
10
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 08:38 am: | |
One key determining factor between traditional vs self publishing that hasn't been highlighted, at least on this thread, is the assumption of risk.
In traditional publishing, the publisher assumes all the risks. Typically, it pays the author an advance, (usually several thousand dollars), assumes all the costs of multiple edits, typsetting, printing and distribution (both to reviewers and bookstores). They have a PR department to help promote the book and author. The book MUST be priced competitively with its thousands of confreres on the shelves. Needless to say, they also accept returns.
Before the first copy hits the bookstores the typical traditional publisher has incurred substantial costs well into 5 figures. They obviously want the book to be a success in order to have a chance at recouping their investment.
With standard self publishing the author assumes all the financial risk as well as the work of promotion and distribution. With the advent of POD technology these risks are less burdensome than they were 5+ years ago, but still substantial for the average person. The author, not the publisher (printer), is the one who must be highly motivated in order to see a return on his/her investment.
PA is a quasi publisher existing in a limbo between traditional and vanity/self publishing which has more in common with Noble house (poetry.com) than a traditional publisher. Neither charges for "acceptance." Neither does much in the way of editing. Neither makes the major investments in print runs, distribution and promotion that traditional publishers do. The $1 advance that so delights many PA authors and helps "prove" that PA is indeed a traditional publisher should be seen as the insult it is. Both PA and Noble house charge exorbitant prices for their product.
Noble house can make a profit on the sale of a single book although they usually manage to dupe the writer into buying more. PA, which incurs slightly more costs, probably needs to sell somewhere between 40 and 80. Even a moderately motivated author can do that. PA "helps" in that department by incurring the cost of sending an email to the infamous friends/family list.
PA could adopt more of a traditional publisher's persona by accepting returns, but why should they? It would add substantially to their costs with little likelihood of increasing sales enough to offset those costs. They have a sweet, cost-effective operation going now.
Writer's Digest is undoubtedly aware that PA's model is neither traditional, nor "traditional" self/vanity; therefore its books/authors are excluded from that contest. Their authors have not assumed the financial risk BEFORE printing/publication that typical self published authors have. Although all too many PA authors dent their wallets after publishing, to keep books in their car trunk.
It's been said a camel is a horse designed by a committee. PA's publishing model was designed by a devious committee who, I believe, were inspired by Noble House's model.
I hope this isn't interpreted as a slam against PA authors. Hindsight (Mindsight? , is 20-20 for most of us who WANT to see. I feel enormous sympathy for those who fell into PA's initially-attractive trap. I wish I could sit down and have a 1-1 chat with every writer considering using their "service." But all we can do is continue to try to shine a light on PA and hope that eventually they'll be exposed for the weasley operation they are.
Author: What Fish Don't Want You to Know |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
747
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 09:22 am: | |
Thanks Frank,
Good way to say and explain what I was referring to. And that explanation cleared up in my mind why Writer's Digest and others don't see us in the "traditional" way.
Claudia |
Brian T. Seifrit
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
607
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 11:14 am: | |
Yes, I too agree with you Claudia. Thanx Frank. That did shine a light in an easily understood manner... And ain't it the truth. Talk to ya...
Brian T.
http://seifrit.ineedabook.net |
Joy Lee Rutter
Awareness Member
Post Number:
26
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 07:54 pm: | |
Pacwriter: you wrote "I think the best thing to do is get as far away from PA as possible. Do whatever it takes to get out of the contract and get print rights back. Then, edit the work and submit to other publishers."
Is there a way to get out of PA's clutches? Enlighten me. I'd love to have my book rights back, edited and sent to a publisher that does more with it than wait for my family to buy a copy.
Joy Lee Rutter
} http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewwork.asp?AuthorID=13176&id=11092 |
Trina Green
Awareness Member
Post Number:
9
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 01:40 pm: | |
I prefer to change my pseudonym and just not mention them. In other words start all over again like I've never written anything. In time your book with PA will stop selling. Then you can get your copyright back to the book or books PA has a contractural right to. As my Dad use to say there's more than one way to skin a cat. |
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