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Gridley Schimlap (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 4.13.175.124
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 03:15 pm: |   |
Here ya go. If she doesn't know I don't know who does.
http://www.publishinggame.com/fern.htm |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
787
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 04:16 pm: | |
Alleluia Print Services, Aldrin Roy, India. Their email address is: customerservice@alleluiaprints.com. Based in India, this company prints booklets and books, saddlestitched and perfectbound, at cheap prices. They offer special prices for printing of Christian material.
I have no personal experience with this company. However, considering that the current industry trend in both manufacturing and services is toward outsourcing and the bottom line is almost always cost, it might be worth your while to get a bid from them.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
cora morace
Awareness Member
Post Number:
35
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 05:20 pm: | |
Maybe the title of this thread should be the reality of writing. Someone should give the definition of a deserving writer or a deserving manuscript. It seems as though those who would eliminate the POD are really only still only seeking to retain some sort of mystique to the rewards of writing. The SNOB factor is alive and well and designed to keep us in our place (unpublished).
I don't mean this as a personal attack on anyone here, who I know have legitimate reasons for their battles with PA, but I found the tone of the article that prompted this thread patronizing and depressing overall.
I'm grateful to my publishers, I used the first (PA) as a experience. It was evident that conventional publishers would be unattainable in my genre and that legitimate agents were equally out of reach. I had no confidence for self publishing despite the high sounding promises there...and was happy to find someone who would take my first effort and put me in print without cost to me. Friends and family paid, yes, but they were well enough pleased for me and I happen to think they got a good story to read for their money. Locally I made enough from my effort to have earned a minimum per hour wage from the hours I put into writing the book, so I looked upon it as a job that I had done and was paid for.
It's hard to enumerate just how much I have learned from that experience, which with out the POD would have never happened. Now I have a better publisher and I continue to grow in knowledge of the craft and the business, but without that POD to get me started, I would have bought into the "hopeless first time author" propoganda and would have never ventured into the fellowship of so many fine people or the rewards that I have enjoyed.
Before all of you who wish to, join the elite campaign to sink the ship - would you give some thought to the one day worthwhile authors that you will strand on a lonely shore? Is there a ready alternative for them if the door of POD is slammed?
Just wondering...
CJ
The early bird may get the worm - but the second mouse gets the cheese. |
Gridley Schimlap (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 4.13.175.124
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 05:31 pm: | |
There is no farm team for publishing. There is publishing and the door is not shut to anyone. Vanity presses prey on the fears and insecurities of novice writers. The fact of the matter is many of the books on shelves at BN and Borders were written by first time authors. To think otherwise is nothing but propaganda. It does take patience and persistence though. Vanity presses know that. I suppose I'm elite even though I live in a trailer park. What fun.
I have no desire to self-publish myself. Only traditional publishing will work for me. |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
790
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 06:36 pm: | |
Is Gridley Schimlap the nom de plume for the writer I got banned for defending on this board? If so, welcome back (the trailer park gave you away).
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm} |
Gridley Schimlap (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 4.13.175.124
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 08:47 pm: | |
Thanks Fred. It drives a dagger into the heart of the elitist claim. |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
3669
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 06:12 am: | |
I lived in a trailer park in Ohio once. Granted, it was a lovely trailer park with lots of shade trees. It was the early 70s and that "trailer" was the nicest home I ever had. An "elitist" acquaintance came to visit with a sour look on his face, looked around and said, "JESUS! You have parquet floors??? And a LAUNDRY ROOM???"
Our trailer cost seventy grand at that time. In the nineties a new house on twenty five acres in the mountains of Kentucky did not cost that much.
Thinking that people who live in trailer parks are trash is a preconceived notion perpetuated by comedians and B movies. I'm surprised either of you gentlemen gave it even a passing mention This is not an attack, just a passing comment from a lady who loved her years living in a trailer park.
Laurel Johnson
Author: The Grass Dance
The Alley of Wishes
Color of Laughter, Color of Tears
|
Gridley Schimlap (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 4.13.175.124
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 10:07 am: | |
I call them affordable housing, plus I hate apartments, but the idea that only Madison Avenue elitists look down on POD-published writers who have no hope of getting a book published in NY is a myth and stereotype as well, equally false, which is my point and why I brought it up. |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
795
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 03:37 pm: | |
By Jerry Springer's standards the place where I lived before I bought my house was a trailer park (8 X 40 turquoise single wide trailer, built in the early 1950's, decorated in Chinese Modern with a large rainbow painted on one side). There is a world of difference between a trailer park and a mobile home village. Likewise, no one would confuse a POD author with a certified best-selling author. I may have started out in a trailer out of necessity, but now I live in a large house on a 1/4 acre lot. I started as an ebook author out of necessity (one step below POD), but strove to progress. That's what makes the United Statess great - the opportunity to achieve upward mobility. It's all about realizing your full potential.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes |
cora morace
Awareness Member
Post Number:
37
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 05:06 pm: | |
Fred,
I think you do understand what I was trying to portray until everyone honed in on the elite remark. You started out in E-book, what if all of a sudden everybody attached a stigma to you because of that? And what if the publishing industry decided that the electronic book should go away? All I'm really asking is if there is an accessible means to be published for the worthy without the middle- beginning or whatever, step of some POD? As I understand it the contention is that an author is better off unpublished than accepted and put into print by a POD...I just really have a hard time seeing the logic in that. But I do see how that thought would serve those who want to maintain a status that is, as I contend, pretty unattainable for the first time author who doesn't know somebody who knows somebody.....regardless of the worth of their manuscript or their talent.
A good analogy would be having Broadway theatre and no summer stock. Concert Tours for musicians and no little juke joints or community concerts for those who hadn't made it YET.
No farm teams for publishing? No A class ball for baseball? Is it truly the big leagues or nothing for a book length fiction writer? Should it be?
Still learnin'
CJ |
Gridley Schimlap (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 4.13.175.124
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 05:44 pm: | |
Unfortunately publishing is not theatre so that's a bad analogy. There is only mainstream publishing and anyone can enter with the right product, resume, demonstrable skills required by the job etc. None of your vanity press POD books count so no there is no farm team. Of course it's the exceptions folks dwell on. Sell enough copies of say, an iUniverse book, and you could get it picked up by mainstream publishers.
That doesn't hold true for PA. They don't count at all under any circumstances. The reporters confirmed this as you will read Sunday so this assertion is little preview. There are small and university presses for nonfiction works that are stepping stones to bigger publishers but commercial fiction is much tougher, if that's possible. |
Gridley Schimlap (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 4.13.175.124
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 05:48 pm: | |
Mine's a senior citizens mobile home village Fred. There's a big difference as you say. |
Mary Erickson
Wandering Member
Post Number:
125
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 05:48 pm: | |
And no local or regional art shows before Guggenheims in New York!
Mary
www.merickson.org
www.behlerpublications.com |
cora morace
Awareness Member
Post Number:
38
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 08:29 pm: | |
My point, Mary, exactly. I don't see why there is such an uproar to condemn one rung of a ladder. I'm not saying that POD is any way the pinnacle of publishing, I well understand that it is not. But I do believe from personal experience that it can be a positive step and I was merely expressing dismay that so many people who have difficulty with one publisher seem prepared to condemn the entire segment and banish the the business plan for everyone. There is another thread on this board that answers my comments more completely and I'm glad to see that others feel as I do - I'm glad to read their endorsements for POD, that's enough on the topic for me.
CJ |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
797
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 11:38 pm: | |
I would be the last person to condemn POD. For me it was a step up. However, that doesn't mean that the industry itself won't continue to slander it with the intention of maximizing profits. Although they won't come right out and say it in plain English, independent publishing houses whose books do not meet minimum break-even sales figures have been dropped by Amazon and are in the process of being dropped by Barnes and Noble.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Steven Shrewsbury
Unity Member
Post Number:
1186
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 08:48 am: | |
B&N has NEVER stocked either POD titles I have out. They outright refused when they looked at the Ingrams page. BORDERS did in a few spots. I got really sick of having doors slammed (figuratively) in my face and phone calls rendered mute by the reality of POD.
I also got really sick of folks in the know telling me the Ingrams page DOESN'T say POD when it does for a company that is POD. Telling them they are not one doesn't impress the guys at the stores.
I will not get into my Ingrams stock rant here. Ok, so I lied.
The few indie stores I could get this book into (I had a LIST for my state like ya wouldn't believe) and a few actually ordered a copy....then the fourth spot todl me, INGRAMS SAYS NO MORE IN STOCK. Each week, 3 in stock? Seemed that way. So, in a year, I could do about 150 books max? Sounds like BS to me. Tried to have it explained by my "publisher" and got smart ass comebacks from their mouthpiece.
Sigh. Well, that is about all I got to say on that deal. Over and done with. Anyone who wants the entire tale write me and I will share a file on it. It is a long story.
www.stevenshrewsbury.com
GODFORSAKEN
Behler Publications |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
798
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 04:14 pm: | |
I have had a similar experience. Big online booksellers such as Barnes and Noble and Amazon seem to do everything they can to discourage the sales of POD books. They usually claim to have X number in stock and a shipping time of 2 to 3 days, but in reality readers often experience delays of 30 days or more when ordering my books.
I believe in the competitive marketplace. Unfortunately, the table is tilted towards traditional publishing houses. I don't mind playing the game, but it makes me mad when the outcome is predetermined by rules which favor some over others.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Richard Taylor
Awareness Member
Post Number:
13
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 07:21 am: | |
And the cold, hard, brutal fact is that it's all "just business" -- some "executive" somewhere has made decisions that affect a lot of people s/he'll never meet (and really doesn't care to) -- as long as the bottom line looks good and they're still in line for that next promotion...
IOW, welcome to the real world.  |
Steven Shrewsbury
Unity Member
Post Number:
1187
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 08:19 am: | |
I entered long ago. It is old news. Just stating a few things.
www.stevenshrewsbury.com
GODFORSAKEN
Behler Publications |
William R. Park, Sr.
Awareness Member
Post Number:
45
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 08:59 am: | |
Locally,(Kansas City area) I've had the opposite experience. With my first two novels (PA) and the third (AuthorHouse), I had a total of 18 Book Signing/Discussions in three states with both Barnes & Noble and Borders Stores. With my fourth novel, OVERLAY, with Winterwolf Publishing, I have to date, two Barnes & Noble Book Signing/Discussions along with Larry Sager, another WWP author. In every case, it meant visiting, in person, with the various book buyers, giving them a copy of the book and becoming friends. No book signings scheduled with Borders as yet, but the book buyer stocked OVERLAY in all local stores.
It comes down to creating a workable relationship, one-on-one, with those that can do you the most good. It works.
www.wrparkbooks.com |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1312
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 09:24 am: | |
I've had signings for "McCoy" at both B&N and Borders as well as some independents. A chance meeting with a buyer from the Chicago Library system over coffee and Danish led to my book being on library shelves in the windy city and gained me a couple more signings in Chicago suburbs.
I've found that, with PA, any opportunities are the ones that I dig up myself. My signings at the major chains followed a campaign where I contacted thirty-five different Borders outlets and over fifty B&N's. I'm told that even if you're with a major imprint, the largest share of promotion is the authors responsibility. A good publisher helps a lot though.
I attended a presentation put on by a saleswoman for St. Martin's Press. She visits two or three bookstores every day of the week. It's her full time job to call on bookstore managers, have a brief one-on-one meeting and provide them with a catalogue of St. Martin's latest offerings as well as promote the titles that she feels will sell the best at any particular location. She said that she is able to make at least two appearances annually at every bookstore in her district. I can't remember how many States she covered but it seems like it was four or five. This is the kind of edge that you get with a bigtime publishing house. |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
801
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 10:54 am: | |
St. Martin's Press is located on the upper floors of the aging Flat Iron Building in Manhattan. Following up on a query, St. Martin's was the first publishing house I visited in 1997 in an effort to sell my first manuscript, The Gospel According to Condo Don. The response of the junior editor delivered through a secretary was that they didn't do travelogues. She regretted that her boss couldn't find the time to deliver the bad news personally. I was shocked. Here I had driven across country only to hear that someone who claimed to have read my manuscript had mistaken my inspirational Christian novel for a travelogue. The sad fact is that even big time publishing companies (St. Martin's is one of the best) don't have the resources to do their job the way they would prefer to do it. Publishing has always been a tough business and it's getting tougher.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1314
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 11:13 am: | |
Sounds like a brutal experience/lesson, Fred. Let's just hope you don't have to run into those sort of things very often.
I had a senior editor from Forge send me a nice rejection letter where he pointed out several features of my book that he called "premium quality." It was obvious that he had read it very carefully. He was quite generous in his praise... He rejected it anyway |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
813
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 11:44 am: | |
I will stack my rejection notices next to yours and we can both cry in our beer. Seriously, I know of few professions where the entry level standard is so high and the remuneration so low. On top of that you are volunteering your services as a Moderator. Where do you find the time?
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1351
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 09:27 am: | |
I have yet to hear one irrefutable argument to convince me that POD can't be a stepping stone to success. The contention seems to be hung up on the perception that the mainstream publishing world doesn't recognize POD as a legitimate publishing credit. OK, I'll buy that if I must. But the point would be???
If the author has any drive at all, having a book in your hand will open doors at conferences, many of which are organized by colleges or libraries who are not part of that publishing inner circle but are dedicated to promoting creativeness wherever it comes from. It gives a fledgling author an opportunity to rub elbows and network. Your first conference will be a lot like your first day at a new school. It seems like everybody knows everybody except you. You need to take the plunge, introduce youself. Not everybody at the conference will be a published author.
Persistence and constant improvement are the keys. I'm reminded of the quote by Minnesota Fats after he sunk a seemingly impossible shot and one of the observers said he was lucky. He shot back, "Yeah and the more I practice, the luckier I get."
This is cut and pastyed from todays MotownWriters newsletter. It's NOT unusual. I see these kind of stories all the time.
If It Ain't One Thing
"A realistic, hard-hitting, urban contemporary novel that covers everything: family, friends, male/female relationships, spirituality, old demons, sensuality, secret sins, and more, and does so in a style that is engaging, thought-provoking, and entertaining. Offering you page after page of characters filled with passions that become their snare; characters that go through so much you can't help but wonder what's going to happen next." - Book-Remarks.com
Previously self-published as Memories of Yesterday, and now re-released by The Penguin Group/New American Library, If It Ain't One Thing has two additional chapters from the self-published version, changes to earlier chapters, and a new ending. For those of you who may have read the self-published version, it's worth a second read before the sequel. |
Joyce Scarbrough
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
545
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 12:06 pm: | |
Thanks for that, Dennis. Really.
Toyce
True Blue Forever
Read the first chapter at http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
Read two chapters of Different Roads at http://www.authorsden.com/visit/mtr.asp?id=7737&loc=ShortStory
Pour yourself a glass of bubbly and check out Champagne Books http://www.champagnebooks.com
Our children have only one childhood, so do whatever it takes to make it happy! |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1366
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 08:16 am: | |
This came in over one of the eight million or so writers forums that I visit daily. It's a pretty decent POD reference. Sign on to the site and click the POD link. Snoop around a bit while you're there. There's other good stuff too.
www.cleasaal.com |
Maria (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 208-59-124-244.s244.tnt1.frdr.md.dialup.rcn.com
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 07:03 am: | |
Dennis,
Where can I find the article you posted online about Ingram? |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1401
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 10:51 am: | |
Maria, which article were you referring to?
More on POD
POD Publishing: An Interesting Development
Late last week, PrintShift (a value-added solutions provider for the print-for-pay market) and ExactBind (developer of the Rapid Publishing tool suite) announced the formation of a network of on-demand book publishing centers. Their goal is to create 1,000 franchised locations where you can print and bind books on demand for delivery within two days.
“Print shop fulfillment centers will be qualified and provided with a web-based ordering system and binding equipment to enable the publishing of hard cover books on demand,” said Tom Carpenter, EBW President. “This book publishing model represents a real breakthrough in the rapidly growing on-demand arena. Authors, publishers, schools, church organizations, art galleries, real estate companies and other segments are clamoring for their own custom books which they can now have within 48 hours and at an affordable price.”
InfoTrends/CAP Ventures of Norwell, Massachusetts, states that the on-demand book publishing market is expected to grow to from 2% of all book pages in 2000, to 100 billion book pages by 2015—a 30% annual growth rate.
For more information on these franchised centers, contact Tom Carpenter, President, ExactBind West, 20331 Lake Forest Drive #C-13, Lake Forest CA 92630; 949-598-4423; Fax: 949-598-0059. Email: Tom.Carpenter@ExactBindWest.com.
Web: http://www.ExactBindWest.com. |
Steven Shrewsbury
Unity Member
Post Number:
1203
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 09:38 am: | |
I've heard folks on other forums complaining that certain POD books are taking forever to arrive after they order them.
www.stevenshrewsbury.com
GODFORSAKEN
Behler Publications |
Trina Green
Wandering Member
Post Number:
186
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:47 am: | |
POD isn't the culprit in the publishing world. The problem is that some who use the technology don't produce the best product possible. In this world, you determine your path, whether it be literary or otherwise. Everyone has to start somewhere and most crawl before they walk and hopefully later on run. I've never fit in any box, nor do I allow others to label me. Every experience, especially the bad ones are wonderful learning tools. The mode of transportation isn't important. The fact that you arrive at your destination is important. |
cora morace
Hunger Member
Post Number:
64
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 09:52 pm: | |
Shrews,
I had this problem with bookstores ordering my PA books. I ended up checking on their supply and furnishing copies until their orders arrived on more than one occasion. It actually gave me a chance to establish a good relationship with these folks which paid off in their attention and recommendation. But I'll admit that it made my publisher seem less than professional, but even that was overcome by my personal dedication to my book. One manager told me that this was a fine way to do business, he didn't mind having the author coming around at all. Once I called to say I'd be in the store with some extra copies for him and he arranged for the customers who had bought books that week to come and get their copies personalized and meet me....a sort of by appointment booksigning.
Whenever I ordered author copies they arrived in a very timely fashion and no one ordering online ever reported any long delay. Just my experience.
CJ |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
1011
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 10:00 am: | |
Okay Trina,
You asked for it!
I'm labeling you as one who won't fit in a box or allow people to label you!
Bill Nelson
RISEN, ISBN 1-93301616-4
Behler Publications |
Trina Green
Wandering Member
Post Number:
187
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 10:19 am: | |
LOL, some people will always swim against the current. There's no box that can hold you Bill. |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1569
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 02:32 pm: | |
Somebody please tell me one more time. What's the difference between Print on Demand and Publish on Demand. |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2389
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 02:42 pm: | |
The difference is in what service is being demanded...
printing (taking the money and printing a copy of a book when one is demanded/ordered)
or
publishing (taking money to publish a book)
Mindsight Moderator
Check out Who Needs a Hero?
|
poker casino565 (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: ip24-253-100-44.lv.lv.cox.net
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 02:30 pm: | |
deleted hey everyone, PLEASE IGNORE THE ASSHOLE WHO IS SPAMMING OUR BOARD. HE will get tired of going into every thread and every posting and eventually quit, I presume. It is a lot of work that he has done to promote his cause, but he is a SPAMMER nonetheless, so please ignore...... |
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