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Message |
    
F.E. Mazur
Awareness Member
Post Number:
35
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 07:40 am: |   |
I'm curious whether anyone here has read Youngbloood Hawke by Herman Wouk, who's probably more famous for The Caine Mutiny. YH was published in 1962. It's one of those big novels (my guess is 350,000 words) that don't often get published anymore. I never attempted it in its day of popularity, but a couple of years ago I picked up a first edition and just recently read it (actually, I've a few more pages to go).
It is set in the late 40s through early 50s. It's main character is a tremendously successful novelist from the hills of Kentucky. My reason for bringing it up here is that it provides some wonderful insight into the publishing world. And since Wouk was already successful, it's unlikely any of what he writes regarding publishing is invented. Of course, I'm sure that the industry is not exactly the same today in the new century, yet I suspect one can apply in many ways the old line, 'the more things change, the more they stay the same.' |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
3770
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 08:31 am: | |
I read Youngblood Hawke in the sixties. Seems like there was also a movie by the same name.
I recently read a book that was even more telling about the publishing industry. It was called Memory Babe by Gerald Nicosia -- a book about Jack Kerouac in the late forties and early fifties. His publishers held his hand, saw to it that he made it to and from personal appearances more or less sober, or at least upright, helped make sense out of his often drunken ramblings he scrawled and submitted in disorder, and made themselves available to their troubled genius at all hours. I doubt many large New York publishers go to that sort of effort nowadays.
Hope I did not misunderstand your point, Frank. Kerouac would never had made it as a writer today, not even with a POD publisher. Wouk, of course, was an entirely different sort.
Laurel Johnson
Author: The Grass Dance
The Alley of Wishes
Color of Laughter, Color of Tears
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Mary Erickson
Wandering Member
Post Number:
172
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 08:42 am: | |
Thanks for the tips. Both books are going my list.
Mary
www.merickson.org
www.behlerpublications.com |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1983
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 09:31 am: | |
I have read just about everything by Wouk starting back in the late sixties and early seventies. Youngblood was one of my favorites, as was Marjorie Morningstar. Old City and The Hope were studies of what was wanted for Israel. (too bad it hasn't to date turned out the way he envisioned it). Also there were really great thoughts about the war from his own perspective in Winds of War and War and Rememberance. Wouk was/is (I thought I read or heard somewhere that he died recently, but may be confusing another author that is older with him) still prolific well into his late years and I think the last one I read was The Glory, pubbed about 1994-95. Haven't read yet, A Hole in Texas, but intend to. I fell into his writing style and themes in the sixties becasuse of his espousing on all things about Israel. And leaned towards his later works because of his sincerity about the things he wrote. He totally believed everything and wanted his readers to understand why things were the way they were and what caused the war and what was possible from it. He showed so much hope for the future. Great writer, many wonderful hopes and thoughts put into each of his books, thoughts that should be read by anyone who wants to understand those events he wrote much about.
He is and always has been one of my favorite writers, right along the top with Michner and Uris. I have collected mostly all of the books by each of those authors. I think I still have every one of those books I mentioned, (unless a mouse or gremlin got into my bookcase and ransacked it or gave them away) although I haven't looked at my bookshelf lately because it is in back of a vary large piece of oak to be used for the trim on my window sills inside. I am a book collector and rarely ever loan them out because I never get them back. Although I have seldom had the luxury of getting first editions, Frank, but I try to get mostly hard cover of all the really great ones. And every book that is stacked into my total wall of books, I have read, they just aren't there for looks or thoughts of being read someday. Now my collection is spilling over into the living room and the floor and my office.
Claudia
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
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Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
3771
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 10:36 am: | |
Mary -- If you meant Memory Babe is going on your list, to be fair to you, the publishing info in it is a very miniscule part of the Kerouac story. Most of it was his wild, self destructive life -- the life his publishers thought fed his "genius" which is why they put up with him. It involves his relationships with the men, women, and beat icons he hung around with. The trials and tribulations faced by his publishers was a tiny part. Kerouac lead a pitiful, disgusting, horribly destructive life and intended to do every single thing for the experience. Nicosia is a very good writer, but the topic is disturbing.
Sorry to disrupt your thread, Frank.
Laurel Johnson
Author: The Grass Dance
The Alley of Wishes
Color of Laughter, Color of Tears
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F.E. Mazur
Awareness Member
Post Number:
36
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 10:59 am: | |
Laurel—
I wasn't making any point, just passing along a great old work of fiction that also contains some interesting tidibits about publishing: Hawke's negotiating his own first deal, thinking it's a good one, but learning later it isn't; the great optimism of the first publisher falling suddenly when the book doesn't sell immediately as expected; the buyout of the contract by another publisher with a long heritage; Hawke's obligation to pay an agent for information he received in conversation, despite no contract with said agent; and so on. Also, keeping as much money as possible out of the hands of the Feds is another subject that gets a lot of play in the novel—the reality that a blockbuster book will put hundreds of thousand dollars in your hands in one year, none the next, but Uncle Sam will take a big portion from that successful year unless the author finds way to keep it.
Claudia—
I too was a fan of Uris and Michener. First book I ever bought was a hard copy of Battle Cry ('They call me Mac. The name's unimportant.') Its success was over, and a store in my area had a leftover copy for sale for $1.00. I still have it and it's in great shape. Another book I purchased at the same time, for another dollar, was Nicholas Monsarrat's The Nylon Pirates. Of course, his biggie was The Cruel Sea. A couple things I did with my early books was 1) drape the jackets in plastic, and 2) shellack the spines of the books themselves. To this day I pull those books from the shelves and read a few pages. What's more, the paper and ink still hold that wonderful smell so connected to a published book. Ahhhhh.... |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
926
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 12:09 pm: | |
I burned my bookshelves long ago (figuratively, not literally) in favor of digital editions. Although coprights don't expire for up to 80 years in this country, they expire in 30 years in Austrailia and a number of other English-speaking countries where I acquire digital editions for a pittance and hold them until such time as I can put them online legally. Several months ago, I purchased a new domain, http://www.dunganbooks.com. As my ISP is located in the Canary Islands, I am hoping to get around the Millenium Copyright Act and add the novels of Kerouac, Leon Uris, James Michener to my growing list of unabridged classics. Each and every edition is personally illustrated by yours truly. On occasion, I may even add a prologue or introduction. E books are very much alive and well, especially at DUNGAN BOOKS, where quality counts.
And, yes, Mr. Mazur, I can beat the $1 price you paid for those books. With digital editions, the pages never dogear or yellow and there is no need to shellac the bindings.
Some of my friends are already testing the waters. Don't tell anybody, but you can read Lady Chatterly's Lover by D.H. Lawrence online and a number of other copyrighted titles by going to Google and typing in the name of the book which you desire to read.
http://www.dunganbooks.com |
Richard Taylor
Awareness Member
Post Number:
23
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 02:40 pm: | |
Yougblood Hawke was one of my favorite Wouk novels. Of course, I read his Winds of War several times, as well as War and Remembrance...
Thinking about these takes me back to when I had time to read, and read, and read, and... (wistful sigh)
Richard Taylor
"Virtual Control" -- available from Behler Publications
http://www.behlerpublications.com/titles-taylor.asp
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F.E. Mazur
Awareness Member
Post Number:
47
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 06:10 am: | |
Art, once released by its creator, lives its own life. This idea came home again while finishing Youngblood Hawke. Toward the end, Hawke tells a friend about the ultimate work he plans for the future, 15-20 books that will make up the American Comedy, and yet each will stand on its own. The friend realizes he is listening to greatness and he later tries to write down all that he listened to from Hawke:
"[Hawke] said the Americans, to preserve their freeedom, had learned to 'keep power in solution' in two ways; in representative government, and in the money system. The communists[,] in talking of 'Wall Street' as our rulers[,] had hold of a distorted truth, but the money system was so designed that power kept circulating among persons and organizations and never piled up anywhere in the quantity and for the length of time necessary to establish a ruling class...."
The above was published in 1962. And in reading it, I was instantly reminded of a few things happening recently that would give Youngbloood Hawke and his creator cause for worry: the rollback of taxes for the rich; the recent restructuring of the the bankruptcy laws which make it easier for corporations to declare bankruptcy, but much harder for the private individual; the exorbitant cost increases by colleges and universities, ensuring that many young people will be unable to attend college because they and their families do not have the money; the ever-larger faceless conglomerates, where merger and acquisition are rarely questioned and where concern for the individual consumer is not what it used to be; the all-volunteer army which ensures that no child of the rich and privileged need ever serve if they do not wish, a corporate army, in essence, which is responsive more to the employer than the people. |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
967
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 11:31 am: | |
All of what you say is true. Nonetheless, it gives a distorted image of the US where 70 percent of all families own their own homes, the unemployment rate is low in comparison to that of other developed countries, and the freedom of choice of the ordinary citizen remains for the most part unabridged.
Americans are too practical to buy the tenets of Lenin. Nor do we want the liberal type of democratic socialism practiced in Canada and Europe. Thus, we reject the solutions offered by thinktank eggheads in favor of those who take a more pragmatic, and consequently less dogmatic, view of our sociological and political problems.
I was part of the citizen soldier army of the Vietnam era and fully support in principle the reinstitution of the draft. Nonetheless, I recognize that an all-volunteer army is more efficient and less likely to be become a political football. I assure you that many a child of the rich and privileged has come to regret their decision not to serve when their military service record - or lack thereof - becomes the object of public scrutiny later in life when they are running for or seek appointment to public office.
http://www.fdungan.com/draft.htm |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1508
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 12:47 pm: | |
As far as I know, Herman Wouk is still alive at 90. He was/is probably my greatest inspiration in writing. I haven't read everything he's written but I can count about six books offhand.
He paints an enormous picture with tiny details. |
F.E. Mazur
Awareness Member
Post Number:
50
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 01:08 pm: | |
"... it gives a distorted image of the US where 70 percent of all families own their own homes..."
This is a distortion itself. It is accepted, albeit misleading, terminology to say that a person with a mortgage on the home he lives in "owns" it, yet that is what we always hear. Not until the borrowed amount is paid in full is the house truly owned by folks inside. Foreclosures are at a very high rate in this country. One reason for this is that the shackles on who can receive credit have been loosened. You've heard the line: "No credit?... No problem." This practice benefits lending institutions, mortgage holders, and speculators. Many who believed they owned their home woke up to realize they not only did not own it, but also that they lost all equity.
"...the freedom of choice of the ordinary citizen remains for the most part unabridged...."
Your choice of words expresses some reservation, and so on this we are on the same page: that is, I don't want my reservations to become nightmares, so let's both keep the watch.
Regarding paragraph 2 of your post... Those whom you would call "pragmatic," I would term today "ideological," and they are as inclined to dogmatic pronouncements as many religious leaders. Being practical warrants compliment, but not in the short term, only in the long. |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
969
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 02:40 pm: | |
The bottom line in owning your own home is that it serves as your castle in which you are free to do as you wish as long as you don't get too far behind in the payments. That Americans tend to live beyond their means due to easy credit, low interest rates, and no threat of going to prison over debt is a well known fact. Where I live (Southern California) the property values rise so rapidly that even those with second and third mortgages rarely lose all of their equity. This holds true even when declaring bankruptcy.
My experience with public leaders is that at the local level the vast majority vote their conscience. Even the Governor of California, who began life as an immigrant bricklayer and went on to achieve celebrity film star status shows little evidence of being beholden to special interests. Certainly, there is nothing in the United States which comes close to the morbida system of wealth and privilege which is prevalent in Mexico and many other so-called democratic societies. The fact of the matter is that in this country there is a tradition of upward mobility. My father didn't graduate from high school. I managed to earn a B.A. from a prestigious university. My son will graduate from law school in two months. If he applies himself, my grandson will go even further. This is what the American Dream is all about. The fact that I am a working class individual and am able to devote a good portion of my time to writing and publishing literature speaks volumes about the range of opportunities.
Our military is the most effective fighting force in the world. If there is to be peace in our lifetime, they will achieve it. I'm proud of our troops. Today's soldiers have a sense of duty. Nor do we have to fear them staging a coup d' etat. They work 16+ hours per day and put up with sand in their MRE's. If they were a corporate army, as you allege, they would fare much better than they do. Make no mistake about it, civilians are in firm control of our military. And those civilians are to be found in the halls of Congress rather than the corporate board rooms of General Motors or Enron.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
F.E. Mazur
Hunger Member
Post Number:
51
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 03:40 pm: | |
You wrongly infer my use of the term 'corporate army' when you connect it to actual corporations. I speak of it as such because of its detachment from the rest of the Nation. We are at war, yet where is the investment by the rest of us? What sacrifice have we been asked to make? All I've ever been advised since 9/11 is to continue flying, shopping, and spending because otherwise the terrorists win. (And nevermind that 9/11 and Iraq are unrelated entities in what's been going on!) On this very board I've read expressions of the sort that say, "They volunteered, they knew this could happen, and if they are killed or maimed, that's the way it is.) That kind of callousness does not rear its head when every family has a fear. It often seems to me that we've hired a contractor, who has hired others who applied to be soldiers, to do what the rest do not want to do. And a high percentage of these soldiers are young men and women who do not have chance at the upward mobility you speak of. Many don't even have a chance at a job and that is the reason they join. It may be cynical, but in light of the recent quota failures by the armed services, it would not surprise me if some form of manipulation to weaken the economy were to take place in certain areas of the country so that a segment of its young people were encouraged to join up. Civilians in the halls of Congress (btw, you forgot the most important one sitting in the White House) may be in firm control of our military, but I want that control influenced by 250 million other Americans, and with a volunteer army that influence is absent. |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
972
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 12:38 am: | |
I served 22 years as a member of Local Board #169, Riverside, California, which is part of the Selective Service System. If we had ever been activated, and we came close to it during Desert Storm, there would have been hell to pay. If you think this country was torn apart by Vietnam, imagine what would happen if we dusted off the draft in order to provide troops for Iraq. When reminding citizens of their duties, it is far better to use the carrot than the stick. That the all-volunteer military has proven its worth is evidenced by the level of support our troops receive from the public. Why fix something that isn't broken?
http://www.fdungan.com/draft.htm |
F.E. Mazur
Hunger Member
Post Number:
52
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 08:42 am: | |
In maintaining a connection to Wouk's Youngblood Hawke, let me offer another quote: "The United States was the land of genuine skepticism, the one land of the naturally open mind; not necessarily well-informed, or cultured, or mature, but open...."
What you applaud, I deplore. As you must know, the all-volunteer army was instituted shortly after Vietnam. The reason for this was not one of prior ineffectiveness. Rather, it was, in large part, the government's strategy to weaken and diffuse public opinion regarding foreign policy that flowed naturally from conscription. Many men were forced to participate in a war against their will. This grew worse when their own government was caught lying: e.g., the Gulf of Tonkin affair, the daily grand inflations of enemy body counts. Our current war, a pre-emptive one and a fraud from the get-go, would have been viewed considerably differently by the Nation if men and women were heading to Iraq against their will.
The 'carrot approach' holds two dangers:
1) It allows the government to enter into any war (or start one) with less difficulty. Because the soldiers are volunteers and described as 'professional,' they are less inclined to grumble and more inclined to act the role of the myrmidon. Because the Nation's families as a whole are not at risk through a draft, they are less inclined to voice contrary opinion about a war, even though they may hold the same. The effect is that the government has a much freer hand to do what it wants, whether wise or reckless.
2) Prolonged use of the all-volunteer structure will weaken the allegiance the army has to its people while strengthening its obedience to the boss, the government. Then the possibility of a coup d'etat you mentioned may not be so easily dismissed. And here let me again relate this to corporate: employees who are treated well by their employer are not so disposed to speak ill of the company to the rest of us. Whistleblowers just aren't that common, and usually remaining employees support the boss. |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1514
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 10:42 am: | |
Interesting perspective Frank...
I totally disagree. |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2007
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 11:49 am: | |
Frank,
I think your premise is skewed by your political persuasions. Although, like Dennis said, it is interesting that you can make what you have out of the likes of what Herman Wouk wrote and the things that have been said here.
However, it is your choice/right to disapprove of everything that this Administration and any previous government entities has done or does and the things that have worked for many years, simply because they are the things that are giving you the ability and right to disapprove.
Claudia
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
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Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
3798
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 01:06 pm: | |
The quote from Youngblood Hawke caught my eye.
"...not necessarily well-informed, or cultured, or mature, but open..."
It reminded me of my husband recalling his experience in West Germany. He enlisted and was airlifted with the Big Red One out of Fort Riley during the Berlin Crisis. My husband at that time fit the quote perfectly. He was not a deep thinker, not well informed or cultured, but open to just about anything that would expand his horizons. He tells of sitting in classes, amused and skeptical, as officers instructed the enlisted men how to think and behave.
They were there for God and country, defending truth and justice.
They should get to know West Germans, be friendly, support the economy.
They were to see the wall as the dividing line between good and Evil --Evil to the East, good to the West, and waste no sympathy on East Berliners martyred on their watch.
Their actions would ensure that there could never be a fourth Reich established in Europe.
My husband is apolitical, but thinks deeper now than he did as a youth. He thinks the Fourth Reich is thriving in shadow today -- a financial Reich -- and that there's no world power left to fight it.
Laurel Johnson
Author: The Grass Dance
The Alley of Wishes
Color of Laughter, Color of Tears
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F.E. Mazur
Hunger Member
Post Number:
53
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 02:30 pm: | |
Claudia—
I don't know what the hell you are doing, but I am trying to have a discussion. Join in, if you wish. But please, please, don't state the obvious that I have the right to disapprove of anything, which makes you appear to be the Grantor of the very precious gift itself. There is nothing in your post of any value to me. Nothing about American skepticism. Nothing about the all-volunteer army vs.conscription. Nothing about compulsory military service. Nothing about Wouk himself, except that you mention his name.
Have you never been in a real discussion with others? I daresay, Claudia, that, as opposed as I am to many of the policies of the current administration, I could argue in favor of them more effectively than yourself, a devout proponent.
I've continued to post in this thread because I've enjoyed Fred's responses, and I like Laurel's contribution right above. When Fred said a draft for the Iraq war would have torn the country apart again, notice I do not disagree. The disagreement is that Fred might think that would be a bad thing, whereas I think it could be good.
Occasionally, when a thread becomes tiresome, a poster will appear who advises the rest to can it and shut up because we are not going to change others' minds. That always mildly amuses me because the only mind I am worried about is my own, and it is open to change. That's because I want to make sure I haven't been sold a phony bill of goods on a whole lot of matters. And that's the reason I like hearing the views of others IF they have some real thought behind them and not just the total regurgitations of some others. |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2323
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 03:33 pm: | |
Interesting theories, Frank...but I also disagree.
"Our current war, a pre-emptive one and a fraud from the get-go, would have been viewed considerably differently by the Nation if men and women were heading to Iraq against their will."
Our current war would be viewed considerably different if our military did not have such heavy restrictions laid down upon them. In fact, one could glean a little insight from past experience, when (in Vietnam) the government attempted to use air bombardment against the enemy (called "Rolling Thunder"), however the plan utterly failed because of the restrictions laid down. I could go into details on that if you'd like, but suffice to say, our own government cut off the military's ability to do the job they needed to do to achieve victory. I have my opinion that the same could be said in Iraq. If the military would be allowed to conduct operations without worrying about hurting people's feelings or making other countries in the region mad, I believe the current situation would be considerably different.
"Prolonged use of the all-volunteer structure will weaken the allegiance the army has to its people while strengthening its obedience to the boss, the government."
Possibly if every person that joined the all-volunteer structure was an orphan, or was someone with no family ties...personally, I see the military as having the most allegiance to God (oops) and country...not the government. I don't see this changing because of the way in which recruits are gathered.
Ask yourself this...those who went to Vietnam against their will (and tried to get out...), were they holding allegiance to the people, or were they holding allegiance to themselves?
Mindsight Moderator
Check out Who Needs a Hero?
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D.R. Bennett
Wandering Member
Post Number:
227
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 12:09 am: | |
Kerouac was a genius in his time, Laurel.
And you're right--he wouldn't survive in today's world.
F.E., as far as reading the novel you mentioned,
it would probably take me an entire lifetime. Way too big.~
http://www.literaryagent.2ya.com
~ D.R. Bennett - The "Mystic" Writer |
cora morace
Wandering Member
Post Number:
106
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 06:13 am: | |
F.E.,
Your response to Claudia is a shining example of why in the future I will avoid reading any posts that have your name on them and simply go to one of those name calling chat rooms to find your opinions.
Shame on you,
CJ |
F.E. Mazur
Hunger Member
Post Number:
54
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 08:10 am: | |
Cora—
Thank you for that information. (Frankly, I've shown more respect for Claudia in my post than you have in yours.) Now, do you have anything germane to contribute to the discussion? There's been plenty laid down here by others and myself.
Todd—
I believe you're disagreeing with a position I've not taken. Like yourself I believe a war can be more easily prosecuted when the great majority of the country is behind it. That can happen with a draft. As it is, with the all-volunteer army, less of the country is closely invested and while the appearance is there of consensus, when push really comes to shove, that might not be the case. All I've done is express some of that American skepticism Houk referred to in regard to the establishment of the all-volunteer army. I agree it is a more effective fighting body, and I'm pleased with that facet. But I worry that it more easily allows for our government at any time (now and in the future) to go to war mostly because those families and individuals who have no son or daughter in the fight will not be tuned in as they might otherwise. If it is a 'just' war, no problem. But what if it isn't? What if those in power turn out not to be quite the men of integrity we believed they were when we elected them to office? If you disagree that it is easier for a government to go to war with an all-volunteer army, tell me why.
D.R.—
Yes, it's a big novel, but the narration is fairly straight forward. I never once got lost anywhere whereby I had to flip through previous pages to clear something up. I finished it on and off over the course of about 2-3 weeks. |
Gloria Marlow
Unity Member
Post Number:
1433
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 12:09 pm: | |
"The United States was the land of genuine skepticism, the one land of the naturally open mind; not necessarily well-informed, or cultured, or mature, but open...."
I think that the majority of the time, being well-informed, cultured or mature, or, at least seeing yourself as being so, makes one more close-minded. To be open, one must want to hear the views of others and be willing to experience new things. This doesn't mean stepping out of your self or your own moral code or basic belief system, for that most often destroys you, but going as far as you can and still be yourself. We all have our own personal "lines in the sand" drawn, but these don't close us off from learning. Thinking we are above learning, that our information is the only true information, we are above others and are too mature to learn, these are what closes the door on learning. As our population gets more educated, more cultured, more mature, we get less open.
We must remain at least somewhat skeptical, we can not buy everything, hook, line and sinker. We must always be willing to look at all the angles, if we want to know the true shape of things. The thing is, in the world today our "naturally open minds" are being force fed things that aren't natural for the mind to be open to.
You all make me feel very low on the totem pole as a reader. I have never read these deep and meaningful books. Even books that people take for granted that all writers have read, I've never read. I read constantly, but tend to fill my head with a lot of "fluff", I guess.
Gloria
The Butterfly Game
Flowers for Megan
Shades of Silence (coming soon)
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F.E. Mazur
Hunger Member
Post Number:
56
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 01:50 pm: | |
In the same part of the book where skepticism is spoken of, there is also this: "...the dirtiest word in the world was 'ideology'; that it summed up the curse that Europe lay under and that America had freed itself of."
An editor in the book with Marxist leanings is subpoeaned before a federal committee who demands names of others who are communists and believers in the Marxist ideology. The reason all this rang a bell with me is that prior to the break-up of the Soviet Union, the word 'ideology,' when heard or observed in a public venue, was usually associated with the Left. Afterwards, for a period of maybe ten years, it seems to me the word was in hibernation. But in the most recent decade it has again surfaced and its presence is usually in reference to the Right.
I'm hoping that we all make it a dirty word once again. |
D.R. Bennett
Wandering Member
Post Number:
229
Registered: 05-2003
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 02:23 pm: | |
"The thing is, in the world today our "naturally open minds" are being force fed things that aren't natural for the mind to be open to."
And this says it all.~
http://www.drbennett.2ya.com
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~ D.R. Bennett - The "Mystic" Writer |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2331
Registered: 02-2003
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 04:48 pm: | |
"I agree it is a more effective fighting body, and I'm pleased with that facet."
Glad to see that we agree on something, that an all-volunteer army is more effective than one built by a draft...unless I'm just getting confused again...
"If you disagree that it is easier for a government to go to war with an all-volunteer army, tell me why."
I don't think either of the two methods (all-volunteer or draft) make it "easier" for a government to go to war. If a government decides to go to war, for whatever reason, they're going to go. It was just as easy for the government to decide to send troops to Korea and Vietnam as it was for them to send troops to Iraq...
Now if you mean that it's easier for public opinion to be swayed in favor of a war with an all-volunteer army, perhaps that would be easier. However, with communication methods the way they are in this day and age (instantaneous information from a variety of sources and sides, all at one's fingertips), public opinion can be swayed, even if a person doesn't have family involved. If the public perceives a war to be unjust because of this information, then they will complain. If their complaints fall on deaf ears, then their vote is used to enact change. That's the beauty of the American system. At least in my opinion...
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F.E. Mazur
Hunger Member
Post Number:
59
Registered: 02-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 06:28 am: | |
"It was just as easy for the government to decide to send troops to Korea and Vietnam as it was for them to send troops to Iraq."
What you say is true, except you're failing to ask yourself the essential question of why that's so, especially since circumstances differed. Vietnam had the draft, the lottery was even nationally televised. No draft for Iraq, but a standing army in waiting. Do you believe you could have so easily made the same statement I quoted above if the draft were still in effect?
"Now if you mean that it's easier for public opinion to be swayed in favor of a war with an all-volunteer army, perhaps that would be easier."
That's exactly what I mean! And that same public opinion makes its way to congressional representatives who have the power to declare war. Or not.
Your last point re communication was a good one and one I was hoping someone would make for the sake of discussion: the widespread use of the Internet and especially the proliferation of discussion boards and blogs will tend to amplify any voice of dissent, thus curbing some of the diffusion of public dissent wrought from the all-volunteer army. Of course, it can be put to use by the other side as well, thus blunting an unwelcome point of view.
"If the public perceives a war to be unjust because of this information, then they will complain. If their complaints fall on deaf ears, then their vote is used to enact change. That's the beauty of the American system."
Which is why discussions like this are important. The goal is not to make one right and another wrong. Neither is it to come to agreement on every point. Rather, it is, through discussion, to acquire a better understanding of the merits and potential dangers of any policy that could abridge or circumvent, whether by design or accident, our freedom to ensure our complaints are heard.
Thanks for participating, Todd. Thanks for your thoughts. Thanks, also, to the other contributors. |
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