| Author |
Message |
    
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1653
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 07:49 pm: |   |
Seriously, Tom, I doubt that General Motors and Ford are going to throw in the towel anytime in the forseeable future. There are more than enough corporate obituaries being written. We need not add to their number.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1871
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 02:49 am: | |
Times change and industry must change with them in order to survive. The biggest problem facing the American auto companies is not foreign competition or government legislation. It's that corporation within the corporation known as the UAW.
I'm not trying to badmouth the union here but it needs to be recognized as an extremely serious problem. The difficulty lies in the hierarchy. GM and Ford are both controlled by boards of directors who seek financially beneficial answers to their challenges.
The UAW is a slow moving democracy with a (perceived) different goal that is largely governed by its membership and those voting members are heavily influenced by the most vocal (and often radical) activists. And those voices do not need to be elected officials. The local units of the unions also enjoy a greater degree of autonomy than the seperate divisions of the manufacturer.
The top management of both of these entities fully recognize the dilemma and are working earnestly to find a common ground but it's going to be a very slow process.
Once those problems are behind them I don't see a GM/Ford merger as being out of the question.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
1957
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 10:48 am: | |
J.C. Penny earnings up 22% in last quarter.
That dirty rat, Bush, has his finger in everything!
I'll bet they manipulated the supply of men's boxer shorts, just so they could raise the prices! Damn, what's next, chocolate?
 |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1874
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 02:57 pm: | |
If American products are so bad, why do articles like this pop up all the time. I'd say that sales of almost a million of one specific platform makes a pretty irrefutable statement about quality.
And we're not talking about Japanese junk made from recycled beer cans here.
Got this one today...
I've got to think that when Bill Ford goes to bed at night he says a little prayer of thanks for the F-150 pickup truck. That's because Ford's (F) chairman and chief executive knows that for the past 30 years the F-150 has been the nation's top-selling truck -- and the top-selling vehicle of any type for 25. My test truck had a sticker in the corner of the windshield proudly proclaiming that it was made at Ford's Dearborn, Mich., truck plant. There's something very satisfying about driving a vehicle made by union workers in a domestic factory and knowing that it's one of the best products around.
I'm not the only one who would love to own an F-150, either. Car and Driver magazine recently declared the F-150 the best pickup truck on the market. And if present trends continue, Ford will sell more than 900,000 F-Series pickup trucks again this year -- the third consecutive year -- with the F-150 accounting for about 60% of the total, or roughly 550,000 units. To put that into perspective, last year Toyota only sold 431,703 Camrys, the nation's best-selling sedan.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3286
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 03:26 pm: | |
"It would be a shame if General Motors and Ford ever declined to the point where they could be acquired by a foreign auto maker.
I'm sure most of you remember back when the federal government gave Chrysler a successful economic transfusion. Should we do the same for General Motors and/or Ford?"
We see how things finally ended up for Chrysler...
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Blog
MWWB |
Tom Elkins
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
451
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 07:37 pm: | |
Chrysler was gobbled up by Daimler-Benz, which is now the #4 auto company in the U. S. Toyota is #3. Toyota booked profits of 12+ billion in the fiscal year just past, GM booked losses of 10+ billion. Ford also lost money. Ford is #2 (in terms of unit sales) in the U.S. Toyota is #2 worldwide. The trends are clear. I take no joy in my fearless prediction, but I stick by it.
Tom Elkins
NORTH of TEXAS
www.authorsden.com/tomelkins |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1875
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 01:39 pm: | |
The last four American made GM (and one Chrysler) cars that I owned all gave me at least 250,000 miles with no more maintenance than regular oil changes, tires and brakes, and occaisional spark plugs. One of them even had the original battery in it when I sold it and the Jeep Grand Cherokee sitting in my driveway has over 266,000 miles on the odometer. And this is Michigan... We have WINTER here!
I think the last figure I heard was that every AMERICAN car that I bought kept 9 AMERICANS working. I see no reason to buy an unbelievably over-rated Japanese car and send my money to a foreign country when I can get that kind of performance and dependability from a car built by my neighbors.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
1963
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 02:53 pm: | |
"...over-rated Japanese car and send my money to a foreign country when I can get that kind of performance and dependability from a car built by my neighbors."
Dennis,
That sounds like the UAW mantra.
The Japanese car in reference was built here in the USA by Americans who are paid well, pay taxes, and feed the economy. I would personally challenge the "overrated" comment. Nearly every report you read, regardless of who sponsors it, shows fantastic performance from Honda, Nissan, Toyota. They are very well engineered. Why is it so hard to admit that?
The problem with Ford, GM etc. is the union. With wages and perks dictated by the union, no wonder they report loss after loss. They sold their soul to the unions many years ago, and no longer run their own organizations. They can't even add a third shift if sales require without PERMISSION for the unions. What's that all about? |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1655
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 03:50 pm: | |
I agree that the fault lies with the UAW. They failed to organize the workers on Toyota's U.S. assembly lines and now they are paying the ultimate price for their incompetence. An earlier generation of labor organizers would have done whatever it took to get the companies to recognize the union. In the opinion of this aging IUE union organizer, today's workers are too fat and docile. In other words they aren't half the men that their fathers and grandfathers were. I've gone face to face with more than one purportedly tough factory manager and I've never met a one that I couldn't bring to his knees. The era of confrontation may be gone, but American workers are much the worse for its passing.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
1964
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 04:24 pm: | |
"In the opinion of this aging IUE union organizer, today's workers are too fat and docile. In other words they aren't half the men that their fathers and grandfathers were."
They don't have to be. It's all been done for them already! The unions only purpose now is a PAC. |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1876
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 05:09 pm: | |
I won't try to defend the UAW; they've created many of their own problems and as I stated in an earlier post, they are a democracy and doomed to a very slow change of culture. The highest chunk of overhead in the auto industry is health care cost and the UAW has absolutely nothing to do with that.
Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mazda are NOT American car manufacturers. They are known in the industry as "Foreign Based Domestics" which means that 100% of their profits are returned to Japan.
Over 80% of the engineering in the Japanese vehicles comes out of Detroit. And their quality has never been proved to be superior. What you're talking about is "perceived" quality. (You meet the nicest people on a Honda)
The American auto industry was once the highest consumer of steel, rubber, and glass, as well as many other peripheral products. Now many of those materials come from offshore.
Ever hear of "Karatsu?" It's a Japanese word that translates loosely into "Mafia." Along with Ford Motor Company, Caterpillar, and John Deere, the Japanese auto manufacturers were buying fasteners from "Dextech," a small coldheader company just south of Ann Arbor, MI. Honda placed such a huge order for capscrews that Dextech had to do a rapid expansion to meet the demand. Once they were heavily in debt, Honda cancelled the order and put Dextech into receivership. Now a JAPANESE company owns Dextech, sells fasteners to American manufacturers and sends the profits back to Japan. It was a Kuratsu maneuver.
That's why I started a thread questioning who really won the war
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
1965
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 06:09 pm: | |
What you're talking about is "perceived" quality. (You meet the nicest people on a Honda)
Dennis,
No one is more true blue than me, BUT...
I was raised by a man who didn't want to ride in anything not built by Ford, let alone own one.
I gravitated to GM, choosing Buick, Olds and Cadillac.
I now have a Honda Accord and a Lexus, and there is no comparison in the ride and quality, not to mention service (in my way of thinking).
If GM or Ford wants me back,they have a hell of a long way to go. |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1657
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:30 pm: | |
I would like to hear what the other members of this forum think about powering vehicles with fuel cells. Are fuel cells a realistic solution to environment and fuel problems inherent with the internal combustion engine?
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1877
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 04:47 am: | |
In my part of the country Japanese cars make up less than 10% of the cars you see on the roads. There are some parking lots that actually ban foreign cars.
Back when the Japanese auto industry was first beginning to take huge bites of market share GM decided to enter the sub-compact market to see how they would stack up. I was part of the study team.
We bought dozens of every make and model of cars that fit into that category and thoroughly dissected them examining everything from the thread used in their upholstery to the metallurgy in their castings. The Japanese finished somewhere in the middle of the pack. We found that their alloys were weak and that if a wheel was going to turn at 1000 rpm they used a bearing designed for 1000 rpm with no overload margin. (The British were guilty of this too) Their engine blocks were too full of voids and inclusions to ever make it past our inspectors. They scored extremely high on cosmetics.
The absolute highest marks without question went to Germany's Opel Kadette (sp). GM purchased a huge chunk of Opel and copied their best features. The result was the Chevette. The engine was designed on a Brazilian platform.
I'm sure that the Japanese have improved since then but they still haven't caught up on holding resale value and they still have a reputation of being far more expensive to service. I'm not hearing too much about them consistantly delivering hundreds of thousands of miles of reliable service either. But then most buyers nowadays only keep their cars until the windows need washing.
All things considered American cars deliver better performance and better value. And the money stays in America.
Fred... I retired from the auto industry in 1992 and fuel cell research was not seriously pursued at the manufacturing level back then so I know almost nothing about them.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3292
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 05:57 am: | |
"I'm sure that the Japanese have improved since then but they still haven't caught up on holding resale value..."
I'm sure anyone with specific Honda vehicles would disagree.
"I would like to hear what the other members of this forum think about powering vehicles with fuel cells. Are fuel cells a realistic solution to environment and fuel problems inherent with the internal combustion engine?"
Fred, I know nothing about fuel cells in relation to powering a car, but I believe a big reason people don't want to rid themselves of internal combustion engines is the lack of high power (everyone wants a Hemi, right?).
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Blog
MWWB |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
1966
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 10:29 am: | |
"All things considered American cars deliver better performance and better value. And the money stays in America."
Detroit naturally (being an auto town) would resist non-American cars. Did people ban other products (by the thousands) not made in the US? Is anything imported banned from retailers shelves? That's simply not realistic, especially in the 21st century.
For years,I owned a leasing company (cars and trucks, both light duty and heavy duty--for fleet users).
There was not one make or model that I didn't eventually run across. Most of the oil companies used GM autos (Chev., Olds, Buick), and Ford trucks. although Chevy was a close second. Dodge made a good pickup, but the resale was horrible.
The survival of my bottom line depended on the end value of the units, as opposed to market value.
Domestic products, across the board, needed much more reconditioning than either Japanese or German, without fail. Reselling BMW's could have made me rich if I had more of them. Selling Oldsmobiles and Crown Vics was difficult to break even on, every single time.F model and C model pickups were a toss up, depending on how they had been cared for.
Given a choice, I would have leased nothing but foreign made because of their superior re sale values. That's not from "a study", that's from everyday, in the streets, experience.
As to "profits" staying in America...The profits are after tax dollars, after Uncle Sam takes his bite, after salaries are paid to workers, invoices honored to suppliers, etc. Tens of thousands of Americans owe their financial lives to these manufacturers (and not just autos). Who cares where the net goes? It only means Bill Ford gets richer or some guy named Yokahama. Who cares? At that point, we've already got ours. |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
1968
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 10:50 am: | |
To continue the rant....
twenty five years ago, a Chevy, 6 cyl. P/U truck could be bought for around $1500.00, MSRP, an 8 cyl. for $2,000.
Gasoline was .70 a gallon.
Today, the same trucks are $15,000 to $20,000, a ten times increase.
Gasoline is near 3.00 a gal., a 4.3 times increase.
Who's yelling for the heads of the auto makers? Who's screaming windfall profits? Who thinks Detroit is screwing us?
Interest rates for auto financing (discount interest, not simple) was 4% to 4-1/2%. What can you get at your bank today?
Off with their heads!
 |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1878
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 01:50 pm: | |
From what I've read banks make billions of dollars from NSF charges, taking the money from those who can least afford it. They don't need to charge any interest at all.
If we could get all of the illegal immigrants to open checking accounts, just maybe...
P.S. I'll never know first hand about the resale value of a Honda because there's absolutely no chance I'll ever own one. I'll continue to buy Chevies and drive them for ten years with almost no maintenance (and NO payments).
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1659
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 02:03 pm: | |
The biggest selling luxury car in China is Buick. Last year sales by General Motors to China topped domestic sales. At the same time that GM is severely cutting its domestic workforce, it is expanding its plants in Shanghai. That's right, Chinese Communists have a lot more faith in American products than we do. The Buick grill logo on Shanghai assembled SUV's is oversized because the people who drive them want the world to know that they are driving a big fancy luxury American automobile.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
1969
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 02:32 pm: | |
Ah, so... |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1879
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 03:58 pm: | |
Somewhere I have a videotape of Lee Iacoca's address to the New York Economic Club. He had just returned from negotiations with Japanese manufacturers and he had some eye opening observations.
I don't remember the exact words but he basically said that the Japanese do not live by a win-win philosophy. Every deal that they make is skewed to give a distinct advantage to the Japanese. He called them experts at "Peeling the onion" saying that every proposal they offered was just like the one before it only worded differently. He basically said that Japan's agenda considered nobody but Japan.
Some economist who understandably wished to remain anonymous attributed Japan's business strategy to an extremely racist culture that he says is unlikely to ever change.
Japan has to be an aggressive trader because they have virtually no natural resources and land is so scarce they can't grow enough food to handle their population.
I don't trust Japan. I have no quarrel with them but I'll keep my hands in my pockets, thank you.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1660
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 07:47 pm: | |
My former wife is 50% Japanese and my son is 25% Japanese. Japanese culture is similar to what our culture used to be in that it is a male-oriented, economically aggressive society. When it comes to being polite, the Japanese have no equals. Being racially homogenous, there is little social unrest and very little need for prisons. If the Japanese have outdone us businesswise, then we only have ourselves to blame. Like us, they are pragmatic. Following World War II, not a single serviceman from the U.S. occupation forces was killed by way of retaliation (contrast this to our experience in Iraq).
Ever try drinking a Japanese businessman under the table? I doubt that it can be done. Think how much more you would enjoy shopping if the next time you went to Walmart the employee at the entrance bowed fully and deeply to you and was genuinely concerned with your well-being. And, unlike California, you can still smoke a cigarette in Japan without having your neighbors turn you in to the police.
I have only one vehicle, a 1988 Mitsubishi Mighty Max, because it's all I have ever needed. Most of the loyal GM and Ford guys I know are on their fourth or fifth truck.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1880
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 04:13 am: | |
Fred's observations of Japanese culture remind me of the American auto manufacturers laughable attempt to bring the "Japanese methods" to the United States. I don't know what made them think that simply applying a few rules could change a leopard's spots.
The funniest example I can think of is the "unassigned" parking folly. American executives always enjoyed designated parking places arranged by pecking order while the lots at Japanese factories were first-come-first-serve.
In Japan's culture people (the ones who can afford cars) respect the station and accomplishments of their executives and would never even think of parking in a place that the boss might like. In contrast, the most rebellious and most radical American UAW flag waver will arrive at work three hours early just so that he can park directly in front of the bosses door, hopfully blocking the entrance, even if his work station is at the opposite end of the plant.
I really get a chuckle when I think about what happened to the executive dining room in the cafeteria.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Tom Elkins
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
452
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 07:19 am: | |
Fred -
During my 18 years on Maui I had many business lunches with Japanese businessmen. We always drank, often to excess. It was considered impolite to be the first to leave, creating problems for all except the veteran die-hards. I soon learned to instruct my secretary to call the restaurant at a specified time and have me paged. I would go the phone and say, "Thanks, Judy," then return to the table and inform the others that there was an emergency and I was needed at the office. That made it OK.
I was selling radio advertising. The Japanese also considered it impolite to say "no". So they danced around it. "Yes, I do not want it at this time." Or "Thank you. Our budget is totally committed for this year."
Otherwise, I found them a pleasure to deal with. Once they did sign a contract, they usually lived up to it, paid on time and in full, and gave us very little grief.
Tom Elkins
NORTH of TEXAS
www.authorsden.com/tomelkins |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1129
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 11:29 am: | |
We once stayed with several families in Japan. I found the people very honest.
Nobody sent us in the wrong direction, nobody tried to cheat us, and most went out of their way to help us, even when we did not look for help. We could walk around in Tokyo Yokahama in the middle of the night without any danger at all. There were very little foreigners at the time (89).
Transport was always right on time, and they had a very technically advanced society, ( more than Europe and the US at the time).
We met an American woman who married a Japanese, when she spotted us she poured her heart out.
She told us that the Japanese considered foreigners to be rude uncivilized Neanthertals, women are also considered inferior. She probably divorced the guy and went back to the US.
I think the racist issue could be caused by them having complex social rules, and foreigners are usually not familiar enough with that.
Sweaty foreigners jump in their baths and use lots of soap in the bath, while you should first clean yourself, and only THEN jump in. Or ignore their slipper changing habits; you need different slippers for the hall, the bathroom and upstears, while many foreigners come trodding in with their boots straight through the whole house. In front of restaurants they often have these two ornaments, and it is considered rude if you don't walk calmly between them.
I drive a 85 Toyota, totally ignore the thing's desperate signals for oil and water, and it is still reliable. I rarely need to take it to the shop.
Many things in Japan are a matter of honor, be it right or wrong from our Western point of view. Like many countries; they have quite a few things we could learn from them, but also several things they could change in. |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1661
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 04:48 pm: | |
In our 8 years of marriage I never managed to get her to jump in the bath with me. Lot's of sushi, but no baths (and no massages either). I suppose I only have myself to blame. When she got a divorce, her parents sided with me and I ended up raising our son. The Japanese are as inscrutable to us as we are to them but considering our diverse origins, we share a lot in common. I don't regret having married a Japanese and I was surprised that when the time came, my son chose to marry a WASP.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
1974
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 10:43 am: | |
Global Gas Prices
City-Date-Price in USD (Regular/Gallon)
Caracas Apr-06 $0.12
Kuwait Apr-06 $0.78
Riyadh Apr-06 $0.91
Shanghai Apr-06 $1.94
Beijing Apr-06 $2.05
Buenos Aires Feb-06 $2.09
Mexico City Feb-06 $2.22
Johannesburg Apr-06 $3.39
Sydney Apr-06 $3.42
New Delhi Apr-06 $3.71
São Paulo Apr-06 $4.60
Tokyo Nov-05 $5.05
Rome Apr-06 $5.53
Brussels Apr-06 $6.16
Hong Kong Nov-05 $6.25
London Apr-06 $6.28
Oslo Apr-06 $6.90
Where would you rather live? |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1134
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 01:36 pm: | |
In Oslo. And get a reindeer. We are at about $6.48. |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1664
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 05:59 pm: | |
How much of that is taxes?
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1665
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 06:14 pm: | |
In other words, $6.48 per gallon is what they have to charge to cover the cost of socialized medicine and the other liberal entitlements that the Dutch take for granted.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1887
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 04:04 am: | |
A little surprising...
I would have expected Tokyo to be higher and Sao Paulo a bit lower.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1137
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 01:27 pm: | |
Fred:
“In other words, $6.48 per gallon is what they have to charge to cover the cost of socialized medicine and the other liberal entitlements that the Dutch take for granted.”
There seem to be several tax components to gas; in total I believe around 64% tax.
That is pretty high I agree, and certainly not all is spend on roads and such. Luckily we usually do not have to drive that far. And only idiots or the very rich drive big fuel consuming cars.
Compared to Scandinavia the Dutch are perhaps more closer to American capitalism than you might think.
But, I’m all for the Nordic Model:
http://www.nnn.se/seminar.htm
http://neweconomist.blogs.com/new_economist/2005/12/almost_everythi.html
Sorry about the links, but the stories are a bit long to copy/paste.
We have Norwegian friends, and talked about the matter several times. We were amazed about what was all possible in Norway. There is more equality between man and woman, and more time for family relations. The system is more aimed at well-being and a stabil society.
It’s long-term thinking, and I like that.
The Scandinavian nations have proven that they can pull it off. Question is if other countries could do the same. We have a less developed system than they have, and a different situation, which might require some adaptations.
I think it is the right direction, but perhaps needs some individual tweaking depending on the circumstances. |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1669
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 05:39 pm: | |
"There is nothing in socialism that a little age or a little money will not cure." - Will Durant
Socialism, however paternalistic, is still socialism in that it treats the citizen like a child, i.e. the government strips citizens of their earnings and, after taking a cut for administrative costs, returns it to the citizen in the form of entitlements and services. You would have a lot more if you could get the government's hand out of your pocket but then there would be people who would drink or gamble it away instead of saving for retirement or spending it on a healthcare plan.
The worst part is that since the individual no longer needs to be responsible, he or she is now free to engage in what would otherwise be unwise activities such as sexual depravity and drugs and not have to suffer the consequences. No matter how depraved and/or decadent a person gets, the socialist state still gives him his entitlements (pension, cradle-to-grave healthcare, etc), whereas here such individuals stand a good chance of ending up on Skidrow and will stay there until they change their ways. In other words, though benevolent, socialism fails to seperate the grain from the chaff. Sooner or later this drags everyone down. Instead of benefitting equally, what eventually happens is that everyone suffers equally - the good along with the bad. Common sense dictates that people should be rewarded according to what they contribute. Exuberant deviation from the path of nature - survival of the fittest - invites disaster. Bread and circus brought on the downfall of the Roman Empire. I think Americans are far too well educated to fall for the free lunch socialist bullshit that disables Europe. The best way to keep from being robbed at the pump is to recognize socialism for what it is - a wolf in sheep's clothing.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1140
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 01:07 pm: | |
Fred,
The Nordic system has proven its success; it is not just a theory.
“Socialism, however paternalistic, is still socialism in that it treats the citizen like a child,(…)”
I don’t think it treats the citizen like a child, at least not the Nordic type of socialism. They invest in their citizens, making sure that ALL the children of their citizens can receive proper parenting, schooling and medical care. It prevents the forming of an elite and what ever you would like to call the people that do not belong to that elite.
“You would have a lot more if you could get the government's hand out of your pocket but then there would be people who would drink or gamble it away instead of saving for retirement or spending it on a healthcare plan.”
It is not about handouts, but about helping someone to help themselves. In our country you have to prove you are worthy of benefits, for example proving you are actively looking for a job and improving yourself and such. If you do not comply they will cut you off. I’m not sure how that is arranged in countries like Norway, but I think it will not be much different.
“The worst part is that since the individual no longer needs to be responsible, he or she is now free to engage in what would otherwise be unwise activities such as sexual depravity and drugs and not have to suffer the consequences.”
That should mean that the US should have fewer problems with sexual depravity and drugs than the Nordic countries.
The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world. That does not seem to match with the statement that the kind of socialism we are talking about (Nordic model,) would lead to sexual depravity and drug use.
The US also has a significant higher rate of child-mothers than Scandinavia.
“In other words, though benevolent, socialism fails to seperate the grain from the chaff.”
A state should not separate the grain from the chaff, they should attempt to turn the chaff into grain, and prevent grain from turning into chaff.
Our Norwegian friend works with young delinquents. He takes them on survival trips and such in a rather harsh form of training. Not only do they get to know themselves, and learn how to cooperate with each other in order to make it (you simply can’t do it on your own,) but they also gain self-esteem by accomplishing difficult tasks. Many young people are straightened out after that. There are all kind of programs like that. Norway takes care of its people.
“Common sense dictates that people should be rewarded according to what they contribute.”
Correct. But it is simply not true that all people in the Nordic countries earn the same, of-course not. Only the differences between the wages are less than in the US.
Are there people in the US that really contribute enough to deserve billions of dollars?
And does a hard working cleaning lady or burger turner contribute that little to deserve only a few dollars per hour?
Of-course people should earn according to what they contribute and their responsibilities, but the difference between wages should be reasonable to the point that a cleaning lady or burger turner should be able to live fairly comfortably and be able to let their children study properly.
Norway scores the same as the US concerning GDP per capita: Norway: 42,364 to US: 41,399. How is this possible if their system stinks? It even beats the US at their own game (be it marginal.)
“Exuberant deviation from the path of nature - survival of the fittest - invites disaster.”
Humans are group animals. Together they are fitter and more able to survive than on their own.
Today I help you, tomorrow you help me. If I would not help you today, I would perish tomorrow. Where would you be Fred, without the help of others?
“I think Americans are far too well educated to fall for the free lunch socialist bullshit that disables Europe.”
Fred, are you saying that the Nordic countries perform worse than the US? If so, in what respect? And in what way is Europe disabled?
I think that perhaps merely the word ‘socialism’ raises associations that might not be completely correct. There are definitely gradations in socialism, and I am talking about the Nordic model.
Scandinavia has a high GDP, the lowest corruption in the world (Finland #1,) a high level of education. No poverty to mention, (USA 12%), and much lower crime rates than the US. Unemployment rates do vary though, it’s low in Norway and rather high in Finland.
I am willing to give that kind of ‘bullshit’ a try.
“Bread and circus brought on the downfall of the Roman Empire.”
I thought that was caused by corruption, uncontrolled expansion abroad, and open borders? |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1893
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 01:52 pm: | |
"The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world."
If you make everthing legal, nobody can brake a law.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
1987
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 02:23 pm: | |
If this is such a debased place to live, why are so many millions trying to come here? Why don't they go to the Nordic Model Eden and leave us alone? |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1674
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 03:40 pm: | |
Harry,
There must be something wrong. Scandinavia has the highest rate of suicide in Europe - more than double the suicide rate in Holland and substantially more than the suicide rate in the United States. If Nordic socialism is so great, then why are young Scandinavians committing suicide in record numbers?
THE SUICIDE INDEX
Deaths by suicide and self-inflicted injury per 100,000
aged 15-24 year 1991-1993, and for all ages year 1995
Youths 1991-93 all ages 1995
=========================================================
Greece...............2.3
Portugal.............3.1
Italy................3.7
Spain................4.6
Netherlands..........6.4
Israel...............7.1
Japan................7.2
North Ireland........7.3
Denmark..............7.8
Germany..............8.0
Sweden...............8.3
France...............9.1
Poland...............9.6
Czech Rep...........10.3
Bulgaria............10.5
Ukraine.............11.3
Ireland.............11.8
Hungary.............12.3
United States.......12.9
Austria.............13.8
Belarus.............14.7
Switzerland.........14.9
Canada..............15.4
Australia...........16.5
Norway..............16.7
Finland.............18.1
Estonia.............20.2
Latvia..............22.2
Slovenia............22.7
New Zealand.........23.0
Russian Fed.........24.8
Lithuania...........25.8
Religious and social strictures against suicide
may result in some under-reporting in some nations.
----------------------------------------------------------
Source: WHO, World Health Statistics Annual 1993&94, 1994&95
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm
|
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1143
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 12:58 pm: | |
Dennis:
“If you make everthing legal, nobody can brake a law.”
Would that not make the world outside the US a very dangerous place, and the US a very safe place? That is not my experiance, and there is nothing that indicates that this is the case. |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1144
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 12:59 pm: | |
Bill:
“If this is such a debased place to live, why are so many millions trying to come here? Why don't they go to the Nordic Model Eden and leave us alone?”
Sweden actively promotes immigrants to come over, as they need people. (The country is nearly empty except for pinetrees, most people live in the south.) Immigrants get financial support to get settled. Perhaps it has to do with the climate up north, it can be pretty cold.
For Mexicans it is too far to swim I suppose.
Besides; of-course the Nordic model isn’t an Eden, but it is an interresting experiment worth to develop and tweak. |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1145
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 01:01 pm: | |
Fred,
Judging from your statistics, it seems that there is no significant connection between the Nordic Model and suicide compared to the USA.
I lifted out the Scandinavian countries and the USA (Nordic Model vs purest capitalism):
Denmark 7.8
Sweden 8.3
USA 12.9
Norway 16.7
Finland 18.1
Denmark and Sweden score lower than the US, and Norway and Finland score higher.
If you take the average of all Scandinavian countries they score 12.7, slightly below the US.
But much more important: we are talking about a number of suicides per 100,000.
This means that 0.0181% of the Finnish commit suicide, and 0.0078% of the Danish commit suicide.
So there is 0.0103% difference between the lowest (Scandinavian) Denmark, and the highest (also Scandinavian) Finland.
The difference between ‘highly suicidal’ Finland and the USA is 0.005% in favor of the USA.
The difference between the whole of Scandinavia and the USA is 0.0002% in favor of Scandinavia.
If the sample size would be 100 instead of 100,000, there would be a significant difference indeed, but now the difference amounts to noise.
It would have been more clear if they had presented the numbers in % instead of absolute. Depending on the sample size a number can be perhaps 100 times higher, and still represent no significant difference.
My conclusion is that the Nordic Model offers no better solution to avoid suicide than the USA , but also that it does not lead to despair to the point of suicide. It simply does not seem to matter in that respect.
Besides; suicide is not a measure for happines, but for despair. One should look at the reasons for despair; one might find such reasons more at a personal level. |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1899
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 01:08 pm: | |
Harry I'd like to hear about your "unsafe" experiences in America
Dennis... Who grew up in Detroit,the murder capitol of the world and in over 60 years in that city never witnessed a murder or saw the dead body of a murder victim and never knew anyone who was murdered or had any acquaintences who knew anyone who was murdered. And was also never mugged, robbed, or otherwise ambushed.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1149
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 02:50 pm: | |
Dennis:
"Harry I'd like to hear about your "unsafe" experiences in America."
You said:
“If you make everthing legal, nobody can brake a law.”
My response was:
"Would that not make the world outside the US a very dangerous place, and the US a very safe place? That is not my experiance, and there is nothing that indicates that this is the case."
I traveled through many countries and did feel quite comfortable, so I think many countries with a lower incarceration rate than the USA do not have more criminals on the loose than the USA.
I once got robbed in Rio the Janeiro during carnaval, but that wasn't too bad, and nearly again robbed in a bus at Copa Cobana a few days later. My Malasian travel companion pretended he was a Kung Fu master, and even convinced me. Later he admitted he bluffed, but I was glad I did not know that at the time.
I got hasseled in South Korea once. I was told later by a Korean that I was probably taken for an American.
In the US, I thought it was Los Angeles, I did have a curious experiance. We had to pay in advance for gas. (We figured that this was because too many people would fill up and drive away without paying.) So when I tried to pay I got hasseled by a bunch of junks in front of the door. They wanted my money to buy drugs. They did let me pass, but it was not pleasant. My travel companions locked the doors from that moment on. Outside the cities it seemed OK.
So that is one of the reasons why I think that the USA is not safer than any other country in spite of the highest incarceration rate in the world. |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1681
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 10:05 pm: | |
Harry,
When comparing the suicide and/or the incarceration rate (a better indicator would probably be the rate of recidivism), one should take into account the fact that Scandanavia, unlike the United States, is a homogenous society with little or no racial or religious tensions. Thus, one would expect the suicide rate to be considerably lower in Scandanavia and the fact that it is not shows that Scandanavian youths are probably not benefitting from the Nordic model of socialism as much as Harry seems to think they are. And the fact that Sweden is sparsely settled makes me wonder if its inhabitants wouldn't rather live in the United States where there are nearly half as many people of Swedish descent (particularly in Minnesota) as there are in Sweden.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1153
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 12:15 am: | |
Fred:
"When comparing the suicide and/or the incarceration rate (a better indicator would probably be the rate of recidivism), one should take into account the fact that Scandanavia, unlike the United States, is a homogenous society with little or no racial or religious tensions."
I agree, Scandinavia is indeed a homogenous society, and that issue is adressed in one of the links I posted. It makes it easyer for Scandinavia. But inhomogenety makes it more difficult for ANY system. I think any country should absorb foreigners at a pace it can cope with to avoid instability.
"Thus, one would expect the suicide rate to be considerably lower in Scandanavia,"
The suicide rates are noise, they don't tell anything for the reason that the sample size is large, and the number of suicides very low.
"and the fact that it is not shows that Scandanavian youths are probably not benefitting from the Nordic model of socialism as much as Harry seems to think they are."
Why does the youth not benefit?
"And the fact that Sweden is sparsely settled makes me wonder if its inhabitants wouldn't rather live in the United States where there are nearly half as many people of Swedish descent (particularly in Minnesota) as there are in Sweden."
I think the US has a larger area with nicer climate than Scandinavia, but the south of Scandinavia is very lovely to live. It's a beautiful area. That is why most people live in the south, and the north is nearly empty except for the Laps. I think Scandinavia is sort of a 'forgotten,' assembly of nations. |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1929
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 05:59 am: | |
Back to the theme of this thread...
One of the things that grinds me is that Michigan has a 6% sales tax and it is applied to gasoline purchases. A sales tax is NOT tied to volume, it's related solely to the price.
Our fair Governer COULD put a cap on the tax applied to gasoline but she'd rather see the dollars roll in.
Out of 50 states 49 of them are showing improvement in job opportunities while one of them continues to board up businesses. Companies from Ohio come up here and offer tax incentives if one of our Michigan factories will relocate in their state. The CEO's come to our governer asking if she'll match the incentive and she just blows 'em off.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1938
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 06:59 am: | |
A religious leader in Iran suggested that if Iran was pushed too hard on their nuclear ambitions that they could retaliate by holding back their oil.
The result... $43 per barrel TODAY even though Iran has done nothing but talk; and it wasn't even a government official!
Iran would fold in a New York minute without their oil revenues. Their second biggest export? Pistachio nuts.
No, the oil companieas aren't gouging us. They're making their profit on volume. Yeah right!
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Pacwriter
Unity Member
Post Number:
2418
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 07:17 am: | |
ah, you meant it jumped to $74.00 a barrel
http://www.perrycomer.com
http://www.blogger.com/publish.g?blogID=20779252&inprogress=true
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Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1941
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 08:59 am: | |
Right
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1722
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 12:57 pm: | |
$74 a barrel is obscene.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm |
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