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Message |
    
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3912
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 07:49 pm: |   |
Everyone,
It's been a joy these past few days seeing so many people getting involved in discussions on writing and publishing. Civil discussions are always fun to be a part of, and everyone can enjoy them.
It couldn't have come at a better time, because we have been discussing ways to improve board attendance and reduce the amount of useless bickering that have plagued this board for some time. I believe you have proven the points we had already realized, in that people want to discuss writing on a writing forum.
So, to that end, we are hereby instituting a ban on all threads related to religion or politics. Other non-writing threads are still allowed in the Mead Hall (and the Mead Hall only), but will be shut down if they venture off to one of these two topics.
Members who violate this ban will be notified off-list (and if a thread is started on these two topics, it will be removed). If a member continues to violate this ban they could surrender their right to post messages at Mindsight.
Our goal in this is not to restrain people from discussion, but to make Mindsight a place where others feel more welcome joining in on the discussion. Time and again, it has been proven that politics and religion (because of their emotional background) cannot be discussed here without the thread denigrating into a vicious battle.
So, thank you again for the pleasant discussions going on throughout the board on topics of writing and publishing...and hope to see more of it soon.
Mindsight Moderators
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Website
Aston's Blog |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2116
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 10:28 pm: | |
Human beings are political and religious. To deny that is to invite insurrection. It would be easier to set reasonable limits than to attempt to enforce an outright ban. The cure may well prove to be worse than the disease.
I'll do my best to abide by the Board's decision, but I cannot help but think that it was ill considered. The end result will be more fluff and less substance.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1986
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 02:14 am: | |
I will miss discussions about the more sensitive topics: discussions about writing alone are quite limited, although at this moment interesting, it might turn Mindsight into a sleepy ghost forum one day.
I have enjoyed the discussions about religion and politics and often used the outcome in my manuscripts. It also made me understand some topics better, and while checking facts during discussions I learned lots more than I otherwise would have done.
I agree on Fred about this: rather than limiting the topics; limit the behavior as that is what scares people away. Perhaps you could have a little discussion corner so people who don't like to be confronted with sensible topics can avoid it more easily? Of-course personal attacks and rude behavior should be banned, but not free speech.
We have all heard of the disagreement hierarchy; I have a nice picture but at 300 x 300 you can't read it, so I wrote it down starting from the lowest level of response to a statement:
Name calling: the response is something like this: "Stupid F**k!"
Ad Hominem: Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument.
Responding to tone: Criticizes the tone of the writing without attacking the substance of the argument.
*** here you cross a line of behavior ***
Contradiction: States the opposing case with little or no supporting evidence.
*** here you cross a line of intellect ***
Counterargument: (here it gets interesting) Contradicts and then backs up contradiction with reasoning and/or supporting evidence.
Refutation: Finds the mistake and explains why it's mistaken; uses quotes.
Refuting the central point: explicitly refutes the central point.
The first three points, before the first line, cause trouble and should be banned. By using these rules you might still have some interesting discussions? |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2535
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 05:57 am: | |
I think that it's more of an attempt to focus rather than plain old censorship.
I belong to several writer's forums on the Internet and the participation levels vary greatly with the personality of the forums. They're mostly mystery writer's forums but I'll show you what I mean:
"Murder Must Advertise" As the title suggests, this is a forum restricted to promotion of our work. Anything you post at this forum must have some connection to marketing. It has a nucleus of about thirty or so regular posters with maybe a couple hundred lurkers and occaisional participants. I see about 12-18 posts per day.
"All About Murder" This is a wide open forum with no restrictions. Most of the discussion here revolves around current events and there's very little about writing these days, unless someone has a signing coming up. It has deteriorated to a point where it has very little value for the serious writer. I don't even read it any more.
"DorothyL" (named for Dorothy L. Sayers) Only excludes posts that refer to politics and religion. This forum has close to 3500 very active subscribers and generally produces around 75 new messages a day. Many of the subscribers are known and respected authors with major publishing contracts. It seems that the serious writers want a place that talks about writing and they don't want the distraction of quarrelsome discussions that, history proves, never reach a solution.
I think we should give this a try. It's an attempt to bring us back to the reason we came here.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com
http://theunrealmccoy.blogspot.com |
Nancy Mehl
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2727
Registered: 08-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 08:10 am: | |
I'm in total agreement with this change. I stopped visiting because of all the political raving and ranting. If that's your interest, find a political forum. Mindsight was always supposed to be about writing. If we can get it back on track, I believe it will flourish. Serious writers are put off by boards that have the kind of bickering we've seen as the norm at Mindsight for quite some time. Dennis is right. Many successful groups define their purpose and stick to it rather than let it become a free for all.
Please understand that I certainly don't want to limit anyone's right to free speech, I would just like to get back to the main purpose of THIS board.
And that's writing.
Nancy
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
"The Ivy Towers Mystery Series" Barbour Books - 2008
www.nancymehl.com
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Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
4550
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 11:56 am: | |
I don't mind spirited discussions on just about any topic. What I DO mind is horrible name callings and character assassinations.
When we write, we use information from all walks of life, all geographical areas, and a variety of topics. I learn by reading what others think and see, so welcome that diversity. I do NOT learn welcome new information from reading mean spirited name calling intended to squash a person's spirit or diminish their existence. When I stop visiting this board and take a breather, it's because I'm sick at heart over something mean I read here.
I'll participate in interesting threads that intrigue me, as long as the discussions are civil.
Laurel Johnson
http://laureljohnsonblogs.blogspot.com
|
Forum Cops
Hands of the Shadows
Post Number:
39
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 12:13 pm: | |
Just so that everyone is clear, these changes are not up for debate.
The board has made a decision to institute measures to control problems at the forum, and the only choice in the matter is to follow the rules, or forfeit your priveleges here.
CEW |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2999
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 03:57 pm: | |
Being one of the more outspoken posters here and one of the one's some of you carp about the most, I have to echo Fred. What he said.
I understand it is CE's board and he has spoken. That's it!
In the year of the most important election of our lives, we are not permitted to discuss issues, or events or offer opinions.
That seems very harsh to me, and sad for responsible citizens.
Particularly writers should be more open minded (IMO) than most people and, clearly, some of you are not. You prefer the cocoon of only safe and cozy writing topics, of which no one actually has much to report. Unless this is a site intended for the edification of a handful, and not a place where anyone is invited to venture opinions.
I do not promote (nor do I see) conversations that get out of hand. Some are spirited, yes, but from what I see (with only one or two exceptions) everyone has been adult enough to pull back from the edge.
It will be educational to see what valuable information about writing is put forth in the coming days. |
Nancy Mehl
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2732
Registered: 08-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 04:50 pm: | |
Bill,
People have been leaving because of some of these "spirited conversations." I find it strange that anyone would not understand why this change is being made. This was always supposed to be a writing forum. But it has been turned into a political forum. And that was never the intent. Yes, I believe C.E. wanted us to be able to talk about other things, but it's gotten out of hand. And that is the view of quite a few people. Most of them long time MindSighters who would like to see this place get back to what it once was.
As I said before - there are lots of political forums. If that's what you want, go find some. But I hope you will hang around here and talk about writing.
Besides - I always get amused by you and Joyce. <g>
Nancy
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
"The Ivy Towers Mystery Series" Barbour Books - 2008
www.nancymehl.com
|
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3919
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 06:56 pm: | |
I'll do my best to abide by the Board's decision, but I cannot help but think that it was ill considered. The end result will be more fluff and less substance.
Trust me, this decision was not entered into lightly...and several options were considered. This two-topic ban was the decision reached, and as mentioned, is not open for debate. We appreciate everyone's candor and opinions, and hope that the lack of political and religious topics will not drive anyone away. But as Nancy mentioned, Mindsight is a writing site and should be used as a place to build us up as writers. That means striving toward the goals of writing books and stories, getting them published, building readership, among others.
I imagine the only fluff would be in the Mead Hall, where non-writing topics will still be allowed minus politics and religion. I hope and expect everyone to drive plenty of substance into the various writing discussions on Mindsight.
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Website
Aston's Blog |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2117
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 07:21 pm: | |
I'm all for talking about writing. If I was going to ban something, I would ban chat and fluff, especially the stop-me-from-patting-myself-on-the-back-before-I-break-my-hand variety.
I cannot imagine living a full life without engaging in politics and religion. Imagine assembling all the great writers from history for a discussion and then prohibiting Tolstoy, Thomas Paine, Plato, Milton, Blake, Bunyan, Moses, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, L. Ron Hubbard, Robert A. Heinlein, Winston Churchill, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, Voltaire, Machiavelli, Dante, Salman Rushdie, Omar Khayyam, et al., from participating.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3920
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 07:35 pm: | |
Imagine attending a writer's conference, only to find out they scheduled a political debate instead...
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Website
Aston's Blog |
Joyce Scarbrough
Unity Member
Post Number:
1309
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 10:21 pm: | |
I don't participate in the discussions about either subject, because I find them pointless. No one ever changes anyone's mind. However, I've never had a problem with the "spirited" discussions between Harry (or Frank) and the resident Republicans. I don't always read those threads, but it doesn't bother me when adults disagree on subjects about which they're passionate.
I've posted before about a forum I participated in a long time ago that had the right idea about moderating. The forum owner had only three rules: no swearing, no name calling, and no threats. Any subject was allowed as long as these rules were followed. The discussions were some of the best I've ever witnessed. I've never found a forum like it since.
~Joyce Sterling Scarbrough
True Blue Forever
ISBN 0-9722385-9-X
Different Roads
ISBN 0-9722385-3-0
Authors Ink Books
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com
Read the first chapters: http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
Waste time on Joyce's Blog: http://joycescarbrough.blogspot.com
Watch the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztz5e3XZeo |
Sharon D. Martin
Wandering Member
Post Number:
222
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 01:48 pm: | |
I will be checking in on this site more often. Maybe I will start posting again. I have felt like it was out of control for long time. I'm happy that someone has decided what this site is all about and has taken action. |
Nancy Mehl
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2735
Registered: 08-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 03:30 pm: | |
Hi, Sharon.
So glad to see you! Please do keep checking. There are some other things in the works that should make things even better.
Nancy
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
"The Ivy Towers Mystery Series" Barbour Books - 2008
www.nancymehl.com
|
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1988
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2008 - 03:34 am: | |
I will try to be a good boy, but I think you took the pepper and salt out of it. I think this forum might turn out like many, many others.
Of-course this is a writer forum; that's why I came here in the first place. But stimulating discussions (just about anything) are part of any person that is in the middle of life with an open mind.
Our life will be reflected in our writings. If we live our life in a very safe and sheltered place where everybody agrees and has the same opinion our writings might very well turn out to resemble the descriptions of a tea party.
I can imagine that authors of a certain genre don't feel the need for conflict, but I have used several discussions here as a seed or back ground for my characters.
Making a separate corner for those who like to discuss, so those who are already insulted by a different view on reality know what threads to avoid, and limit the behavior on such threads would add so much more and scare off no one in my opinion.
But like I said: I will be a nice little boy and behave; I will clean my tea cup and get the biscuits. |
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