| Author |
Message |
    
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
964
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 01:10 am: |   |
Fred,
I am sorry you feel the way you do about this and I feared you would, but sometimes, things just have to be done that are not wanted. In order to keep the board from being taken over by a person who was not here to help any one of us, but to only promote his cause, he forced the decision.
It would be a shame if you let that take you, your talent, and personality, away from us. We do appreciate you, care about and like you. The decision that was reached by CE was not done lightly, nor with any malice or intent of anything other than to make our board a comfortable place where people don't have to NOT read a thread because of someone else's agenda always taking front and foremost top billing. If he would have toned it down a bit and become a bit more civil to other people he wrote to, and listened to those that tried to show him that to every coin there is always another side, then it wouldn't have happened.
Please reconsider. I, and I think everyone else here, would like to see/meet you too.
Claudia |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2739
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 07:27 am: | |
I hate to see you go, but know you always follow your own star.
Adieu until you return. |
Gloria Marlow
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
713
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 07:45 am: | |
Fred, Before you leave, I would just like to say that I started reading Bushwacked and it is a very good book. I am surprised by how much you and I think alike on a number of things.
Anyway, just thought I'd share that with you in case this is the last chance I get.
Gloria |
Harry Simenon
Hunger Member
Post Number:
66
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 12:40 pm: | |
Banning people is never an answer. If people get annoying, insulting or boring I’ll just ignore them. Where will you draw the line between freedom of speech and gagging?
Some people have a way of expressing themselves that is not very polite or sociable, but the words they write are only words. As long as I’m not physically under attack they can write whatever they write, even if I don’t agree with them. I might even skip the whole post when I read certain names.
Unlike Fred I will continue to post on this board. I just hope that there will be not too many bannings.
|
Gloria Marlow
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
716
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 01:29 pm: | |
I have been trying to teach something to my children, especially my 15-year-old son. Sometimes, it's not what you say, but how you say it.
I try to let my kids share their opinion with me on just about everything, because I realize they aren't little Gloria's, they are their own separate people and they have their own opinions and thoughts. I think it's important that they learn to share those opinions and thoughts in an adult way without being snide or insulting to the other person.
That being said, I am not one of these parents who lets their children talk however they want to me. They do so with a respectful tone or they don't talk at all. My son is capable of telling me he prefers Fruity Pebbles instead of Corn Flakes and making it sound like I am beneath his contempt and too stupid to understand what he is saying or that he is so mad that he could just explode. That does not go over well with me and I am truly not sold on the time-out as punishment idea (you can garner from that what you wish). I understood he liked Fruity Pebbles the very first time he said it, but for some reason preferred to buy Corn Flakes. He will soon find himself eating oatmeal if he isn't careful. I assure you, he would prefer just about anything over oatmeal. He is also perfectly capable of saying it in a way that does not raise my hackles and smart enough most of the time to use that tone.
What I'm doing is trying to prepare them to enter the world one day as adults. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I believe we can all agree that no one has ever been banned from this board for the contents of or reasons for their opinion. How they deliver that opinion, however, is an entirely different matter. We are all adults. Some of us are far newer to the publishing game than many of those here, but we are adults all the same and deserving of common courtesy and respect.
If a 9, 13 and 15 year old can figure it out, I'm sure grown people can. There is a world of difference between the reasons people are banned from the PA board and why two people have been banned from this site in the last three years.
|
Sheila Schmidt
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
413
Registered: 05-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 01:43 pm: | |
I agree, Gloria. I absolutely cannot stand it when my 8 year old son uses that exasperated, condenscending tone with me, or even with my 4 year old daughter. I tell them that it's ok to get mad, but they will do it with manners. That short, sharp tone of voice that he can cock from time to time totally unnerves me, and is probably the number one thing that gets me going the fastest.
There is little doubt as far as I'm concerned that rude, condenscending bully-fied adults were rude, condenscending little brats who never paid any consequence for unsocial behaviour, either because no one cared, no one took the time, or everyone associated was totally inept.
God, now my hackles are up. Ok, I'll end now before I truly get on my soapbox!
Sheila |
Harry Simenon
Hunger Member
Post Number:
67
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 02:44 pm: | |
I teach my children to express themselves in a civilized manner too, that still doesn't mean that I think that adults should be banned if they express themselves in an awkward way.
The freedom to speak your mind is a sacred thing. If someone expresses him/herself in rude or insulting manner you have the right to tell them this, but banning them gives them the idea that they are on a lonesome crusade against the rest of the world. “You see? They banned me because I speak the truth!” Just don’t respond to insulting or boring posts, that hurts more. Let them post and learn how one can communicate in a civilized manner.
Let everybody judge their words themselves instead of wondering what they might have said. And often the real message isn’t in the words, but in the way it’s been said.
This doesn’t mean in any way that I agree with the words of the banned. Hmm, sounds like a nice title
“The Words of the Banned”
|
Jennifer Lynn
Unity Member
Post Number:
1118
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 03:12 pm: | |
I think the whole gist of this, Harry (and Fred too if you're out there in Lurksville) is that Mark was given private warnings to curb his behavior. He was warned in advance that if he couldn't play nice, he'd be asked to take his toys and go home. He didn't heed the warning...
As for bannings, I can probably count on one hand the amount of people who've been banned from here in the two years I've been posting. CE doesn't ban lightly.
Jennifer Lynn
www.jenniferlynn.ca |
Harry Simenon
Hunger Member
Post Number:
68
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 03:26 pm: | |
I agree with you that CE doesn’t ban lightly, still I think it’s sad. |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
968
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 03:26 pm: | |
Harry,
All of your thoughts and desires were communicated to Mark York (aka Publius2) several times and he was warned a few times by CE also, that the behavior would not be tolerated, and every time he got warned or we tried in our own ways to curb the rhetoric, he continually got worse and more beligerent. You hit the nail on the head with "and often the real message isn't in the words, but in the way it's been said." That is exactly what we have been having the problem with Mark about, the way he said things. Many times it wasn't the words at all, but his superior attitude and demeanor and condescending ways of telling us all that we were beneath him because we did not have the gumption to fight the fight and therefore we totally deserved to be where we were, stuck in our own little shit pot.
We, most of us, have tried to ignore his posts and not let the remarks bother us, but sometimes when begging, pleading, and warnings do no good, someone has to take the wind out of the sail and give the person no way to sail. Thus the banning.
Again, most of us freely like a good debate and we all know that there are many who do not agree with us on some or most of the topics, but we can and do stay civil and attentive to basic needs of respect and consideration. Nuff said.
If you want to go because we demand that the same respect we give to others here will be given to you and we expect it to be returned, then so be it. A board for messages is not a place to let everything all hang out because no one can stop you, same as any other place that a person would frequent, there are still always mutual respect laws to abide by. People shouldn't have to be taken behind the woodshed and have their bottoms paddled in public, but others should not be the target that is browbeat to death and put down, simply because the stuff the first person says is not the way another person thinks or wants to feel.
Claudia |
LaurieAnne
Unity Member
Post Number:
1270
Registered: 12-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 03:27 pm: | |
Harry,
Working in the newspaper industry these last 5 years, allow me to chime in, please. Yes, Freedom of Speech is important enough that it was included in the Bill of Rights, requirement for half the original states to sign the Constitution. However, freedom comes with a price, and with restrictions.
If you get too rowdy in a bar, you'll get thrown out; that is the right AND RESPONSIBILITY of the management so that the other patrons do not feel threatened (thereby ruining business, duh).
If you yell "fire" in a theatre, you will be arrested and charged with inciting a riot (possibly without a permit, depending upon the locale) as well as, if the officer words it smart enough, attempted murder...in a stampede from a burning building, more people are killed by the stampede than the fire. (This same applies to yelling "hold-up" in a bank, "hijack" in an airplane, and I think you are intelligent enough to figure out other similarities.)
Back to the bar example. If you ignore the person trying to start a fight, he (or she) does not shut up and "learn how to behave". The person being ignored not only gets in your face and gets louder (don't forget the spit flying from his/her lips--yuck!), he/she also will take a swing and physically harm you if ignored. In general, the bouncers have to either escort him/her out the door, or they call the police to do so for them.
Even working in the media with the alleged freedom of speech issue being used as a shield all the time, there are certain things we absolutely will not put in print. We (meaning the paper I work for, not all papers in general) go so far as to trim the accident photos so that pools of blood on the pavement are not being splashed all over out front page. Just because we CAN do something does not mean that we should. And yes, if someone does not agree with what we print, we get cancellations, verbally assaulting phone calls, and in-person screamers. These things occur not only at the office, but those who know that we work for the paper (writer or not) will come to or call our HOMES and continue the assault there. Of course, the same courtesy does not apply when they AGREE with anything, but that is not the issue. Is it right that customers should be allowed to call every person (60 people work here, only 6 write for the paper) and scream at them AT HOME just because they work here? Well, according to the freedom of speech, yes, they can. Just because they can does not make it right.
For the record, I have not only called the police on unruly customers gone over the edge, I have made sure that other employees know who they are and if they come on the premises again, we call the police again. That is OUR RIGHT to protect ourselves and our property from potential danger. So, is that wrong?
And yes, I teach my children the same thing. When either of my sons decide to yell at me, he is sent to his room until he can talk to me in a civil tone. The same goes for my daughters. The same also goes for any single person they bring into my home. I have informed more than one of my children's friends that if they expect to visit here, they WILL behave in a proper manner. No if's, and's or but's about it. Just because they have the right to talk as they choose does not mean that I have to tolerate it. It's my house. End of story.
This is Hrothgar's Mead Hall. Not yours. If Hrothgar then decides that someone has started to scare away his customers and wants that person to leave, so be it. That is HIS choice to make. If you don't agree that the person was that unruly and should not have been escorted to the parking lot, it is then YOUR choice to follow him of your own accord, or become unruly enough yourself to get thrown out too.
Fred made the decision that Publius was thrown out unjustly. Fine. That was his choice to make.
The rest of us happen to think that he was extremely justly thrown out. You don't have to scream to make a point. If you enter a conference room to give a speech and proceed to insult every audience member, do you think they will ever want to be in the same room as you again?
This isn't about freedom of speech. This is about choices and consequences.
He made his choice. He has allegedly made that choice numerous times in the past on OTHER message boards. Now, he was served the consequences.
Now, by this same standard should PA be judged. Imagine you owned the company or this board and someone came in and started issuing challenge to you. Would you not get tired of the constant verbal assault and disallow that person access? Everybody here who knows me at all knows exactly what I think of PA, and it is not in any form enlightening nor positive. I have very strong opinions, and none of them are good.
But that doesn't mean that they should be looked at any differently.
It IS their board. And if they don't want certain things mentioned on it, it WOULD BE much easier to compile a notice for all posters stating what is not allowed to be posted. It would save them tons of time, I'm sure. They could list anything to do with your contract being on the not allowed on the board (where anyone in the world can see it). This would then encompass pricing issues, returnability, editing, etc. and would serve as their disclaimer. (Mind you, I am NOT trying to give them any ideas. BELIEVE YOU ME!<--it's a dad phrase.) It IS their board, and it IS their choice. If you don't agree with the way they handle things, don't go back to that board.
For example, personal opinion being entered here, the grounds upon which PA labels something as being a verbal attack does not match (in the least) the grounds upon which I label something as being a verbal attack.
Of course, posting a nasty message on a message board where they have access of deletion does little good toward steering others away or tarnishing their name, but that's a personal opinion in another direction. 'Twould be wiser still to file a complaint with the appropriate agency for retribution of any said wrong-doings.
Again, I state that I have very strong negative opinions about that particular company. But again, I also state that they should be judged on the same standards.
And again, I state, there are choices to be made.
Hmmmm....this has become another of my really long ramblings, eh?
I'll shut up now.
LA
LaurieAnne
|
Olen Armstrong
Wandering Member
Post Number:
155
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 03:36 pm: | |
Harry,
the constitution gives us a guarantee of free speech. But there is no guarantee that you must be listened to. And there certainly is no guarantee that you can use rude speech in someone else's house.
I hate to see someone banned, because rascals add spice to life. But even rascals should follow at least the minimum of required behaviour as defined by the responsible party, in this case C.E.Winterland.
Publius is completely free to start his own message board and invite in only those who want to rant and rave about PA. Peaceful souls can be disallowed.
There's even web entities that will allow him to do it for free (mostly).
THAT's free speech at work.
I think his sin here wasn't so much what he wanted to express, but that he got mean and personal and continued in that vane. I was lurking and watching it as it unfolded. Kinda like lookin' at a car wreck. Or trying to NOT stick your tongue in a cold sore. It hurt, but I looked anyway. He was given plenty of rope, and lots of leeway to avoid getting tangled in it. He plowed on anyway.
Hate to see it, but I completely understand it, and sadly must agree with it. This is C.E.'s house. He has the right to make the rules.
But then I could be fulla crap. I often am.
Later,
Olen A. |
Harry Simenon
Hunger Member
Post Number:
70
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 03:46 pm: | |
I'm not disputing CE's rights on his own board |
Gloria Marlow
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
718
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 05:13 pm: | |
Harry, I don't think we have to worry about too many bannings. And in case you feel like we all ganged up on you, I'll clarify that my post wasn't necessarily aimed at you. It was just a rambling observation. |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
712
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 06:32 pm: | |
HAY GLORIA...
I just gotta ask. Is that a recent photo??? I just changed mine (again) to one that was taken last summer before I got my new HOG. |
Gloria Marlow
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
720
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 08:02 pm: | |
It's fairly recent, last spring. My daughter happened upon it in the coffee table and I thought I'd put it up here.
Why do you ask?
I noticed you have a new picture up. It's nice.
(Message edited by gloria on March 19, 2004) |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
613
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 04:08 pm: | |
I musta missed this post by Fred, but we have spoken privately on it.
I hope you return, Fred.
Writers are a different breed and it takes all kinds. I would like to think we showcase all types of folks and personalities here.
Publi was a stool sample, and he was a source of weariness, but it got to the point where I skipped his words and felt sorry for him. Such a waste of words to troll boards and keep talking around the same topic with bizarre pathology over and over. Like any child pulling his pants down, I ignored him. He wasn't my kid, so I couldn't spank his ass. I guess it is CE's position to do that if he so chooses. Shrugs.
Like Fred alot and look forward to him returning. He's got balls and he uses them. Some may not like how...but I will hand him that much.
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
C. E. Winterland
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1398
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 02:00 pm: | |
Harry, for what it's worth, I really don't like to ban people.
I understand the uneasiness surrounding the very word itself rather well.
This is a social place. Antisocial behavior and complete lack of respect of the others here is just not welcome. This is a free place, and offers a lot of good conversation, thanks to those who are capable of entering a social atmosphere without feeling any need to begin laying waste to the other guests. I handed Mark York and Publius2 and probably a few of his other aliases several freely given opportunities to continue being welcomed here.
Unfortunately, though I would rather play host to a free and democratic site (democratic in the true, historical sense of the term), there are just times that someone has to step up and take some measure of control over those that would keep laying waste to all about them until the very walls come crumbling down around their ears, and all that is left is that person wailing into the night and wondering why no one will support him in his endeavors.
Olen has the absolute right of it. Mark and Fred have every opportunity to go start their own place. Mark York enjoyed the ability to well overstay his welcome here, and I'm afraid that Fred has joined his camp and will not be returning here either (though an invite is extended to Fred should he wish to return, a simple e-mail would suffice for that).
Frankly, I hate that any such rules have been necessary at all. Had this been, say, pre-societal historical mankind, it seems that Fred and Mark would have forced a challenge for power, and I would have been forced to kill them, or die myself. In the dark ages, a similar power struggle would have been forced, and again the results would have been the death of the loser. The more we go through history, the more those deaths change to torture (likely resulting in death), banishment, jail sentences, and the like. Fortunately this is modern day, civilized mankind we are talking about here, and a simple website privately owned and opperated by me (someone who believes in the potential for mankind to behave in a civilized manner). I gave them more chances than many would have, and in the end when the total disrespect continued beyond my having asked nicely, I took away their privelege to participate here.
Honestly speaking, I often ask the advice of the others here when faced with those kinds of decisions (as I did in this case - when the users of this forum were asking for the removal of Publius, I CONTINUED to give him a chance for civility). I could run this place with a heavy hand and force everyone to play as I want them to or hit the highway, but what kind of place would that be? Empty, is my guess.
Anyhow, it's everyone's right to disagree with me - I fully support that. All I ask is that you do so with respect. Those that cannot find respect for their fellows, just won't be allowed to participate.
If it is your choice to leave the forum because of that, I'll understand. If so, just let me know if you would like the return of your short story submitted for the anthology.
Best wishes,
CEW |
Harry Simenon
Hunger Member
Post Number:
71
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 02:05 pm: | |
CE, I am convinced that you do not find pleasure in banning people. I do not agree with the people you banned, and it is your right to ban people as it is your board. It just gives me an uneasy feeling. Like Steven Shrewsbury I simply skip the posts that do not appeal to me. If I’m in a bar and someone starts to push me or spill beer all over me I really don’t mind if that person is kicked out. But posts are just words and easy to ignore. So the fact that I am posting this means that I take most people on this forum seriously.
I am not intending to leave the forum unless you request me to do so. I rather stay communicating. This is even more important when you do not quite agree with each other. The use of the short story I submitted is still up to you. Just let me know if you are not intending to use it. (It does need some editing though!)
 |
C. E. Winterland
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1400
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 06:36 pm: | |
Harry,
I don't want you to leave the forum at all
I wish that I could invite back any that have been banned in the past and have everyone agree to disagree respectfully.
I doubt he would believe it at this point, but I'm gonna miss Fred around, and I hope that he eventually figures out that I'm not the bad guy, a liar, a fascist, etc... He hung tough with us for a good while and didn't try to make everyone think his way (like others have), and I think we all respected that, knowing that Fred may be more vociferous in his views than some of the others around here.
Anywho... I'll stop rambling. Oh... the Anthology deadlines have been extended, and I haven't been able to read all of them yet (even though there aren't that many). We still need more from the gang before we can start talking compilation, editing, etc...
CEW |
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