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Message |
    
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1798
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 11:04 am: |   |
Gloria and I sort of wandered from topic in the thread ‘misbehave’ so I opened a new one.
Gloria said:
“It seems everyday for the past few months, someone walks into a restaurant, a shopping mall, a school, etc. and opens fire on innocent people. I have to wonder what is making people so full of hate, so full of despair. It is very sad to see so many who have no empathy for their victims.”
I think that at the root there is usually some relatively small injustice that is projected on a whole group and escalates. In the case of gunmen at schools they are often ridiculed or ignored by a small group. The gunmen start to live in their own world, lose also contact with the ‘nice’ kids, and start to hate the whole school and everybody in it. Which makes the situation even worse.
I do think you need a certain background for the situation to get out of hand that bad. Many kids are teased or ridiculed and never hurt anyone, so there are more factors like personality, home situation and other events in your life.
It seems that victims are often prone to victimize others. Rapists for example are often abused themselves. Also children who grow up in neglect most often become bad parents themselves. Somehow that vicious circle needs to be broken.
And sure you’ll have your occasional maniac who had great parents and a nice life and still kills innocent people just for the fun of it perhaps.
When you hold a whole group responsible for something one person or several individuals did, you will definitely start to behave differently towards that group which they will definitely sense. Their behavior towards you will change, and also there will be a few that will consider the whole group you belong to as suspect or evil.
I think communication is extremely important. It takes away misunderstandings and anger. I often talk to Muslims and we learn from each-other. Most of them are not at all that ‘fundamentalistic,’ and often do not agree at all with what is going in strict Islamic nations considering terrorism, justice and human rights.
But at the same time they feel increasingly unwelcome in the West, while in my judgment they definitely belong more here than in those strict Islamic countries.
Some moron here has produced a hate movie about Islam, for example, and wants all Muslims out. It gives them a very uneasy feeling, just like you perhaps might have when a Christian does something awful and your are held accountable for that as you are a Christian too.
It is often claimed that Hitler was an atheist, but he was a Christian too, and I think we all agree that he can never represent the average Christian.
Unfortunately holding a whole group responsible for the actions of a few members of that group seems to be human. |
Gloria Marlow
Unity Member
Post Number:
2076
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 03:48 pm: | |
I think that people in Western-type societies feel as if they have lost a great deal of control of their own lives and often it is the resulting feeling of helplessness that leads them to lash out at those they feel have the control that should be theirs. I think as our society has become more industrial we have given up fundamental freedoms that men used to take for granted. We have given control of our livelihood, etc. to others. I know that farmers and others who make their living from the earth often have no control over what happens with the weather, etc., but that is completely out of human control. To have another human control your life is different. Then, people become the focus of the anger and helplessness.
I have had issues with the light company in my city adding deposits to a bill that is already too high, because one of my payments was late. Once they had added one, they added two, three, etc., every time the late bill went up they made me pay another deposit equal to that month's bill ..and they had three price increases that year... until I had been charged $1,000 worth of deposits in a year. There was absolutely nothing I could do to keep up or to change their minds and remove the deposits, and there isn't another light company in town, so they can basically do whatever they want and you can't go somewhere else for power. That is probably the closest I ever came to understanding "going postal" because I was on the verge of it myself. In the end, I simply lived without power for a while. It was very liberating.
You know, I understand what you're saying about holding a whole group of people responsible for what a few do. I know that this is not right, but I understand how it happens. I think you will find that Christians as a whole, myself included, are afraid of those who claim to be called to do some horrible deed for their god. In Christianity, we learn that man gains nothing if he loses his soul. I believe perhaps that Muslims are taught something similar. Probably all religions that promise an afterlife teach the same thing. So, maybe we understand the dedication that it takes to kill "infidels" when you are told to do so by your God. Like I said in the other post, I know some Muslims, but I don't doubt that they are faithful enough that if they felt it was necessary to protect their religion or serve their God, would go to war with anyone of opposing views. Nor do I doubt most Christians I know would do the same.
The fact that religion is such a strong motivation in much of it is what makes it so difficult, I think. If someone is unfaithful enough to surrender their eternal life for something here on earth (even life itself), they are usually not faithful enough to fight for it anyway.
www.geocities.com/gloriadmarlow
http://youtube.com/user/gloriamarlow
Flowers for Megan**Shades of Silence**The Butterfly Game
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Tom Elkins
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
922
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 08:36 am: | |
I'll drink to that!
Hey Bill - It's snishing over here. Snish is something that looks like snow coming down, but melts before it hits the ground. Texas at its ugliest. And most dangerous.
Tom Elkins
NORTH of TEXAS
www.authorsden.com/tomelkins |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1801
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 09:14 am: | |
Gloria:
“I think that people in Western-type societies feel as if they have lost a great deal of control of their own lives and often it is the resulting feeling of helplessness that leads them to lash out at those they feel have the control that should be theirs.”
I think you could be right about that. The happiest days of my life often revolved about the very simple things in life, like chopping wood for a fire and smoking fish in Norway under the star lit sky, and later enjoy eating it with friends and family. In Norway many people live much closer to nature and could provide for themselves if necessary. There is enough wood for shelter and fire, and lots of animal life to hunt. Norwegian friends of us didn’t own a TV until recently, not that they could not buy one, but they just didn’t care. I don’t think they missed much all those years...
All that is very difficult in the Netherlands.
Often I have the idea that we work to pay the gas to go to work, in a matter of speaking.
It sounds like a very immoral electricity provider to do the things you describe. I can imagine ‘going postal.’ I think here the government puts a certain limit to the prices, and it rarely happens that just one provider is available because it is so very densely populated here.
“I think you will find that Christians as a whole, me included, are afraid of those who claim to be called to do some horrible deed for their god.”
Hihi, I’m not a Christian but I’m with you all the way on that one...
But I believe there is a great difference in the way religious people believe. Some Christians only believe in a God, but never go to church, don’t read the bible and have non-religious friends, while others can recite every word, have a strong urge to convert people and will refuse to be friends with non-religious. Most Christians will be between those extremes.
Exactly the same can be found among Muslims living in the West.
Often quotes from the Quran are presented as proof that the Islam is a horrible religion, but I can find horrible things like stoning and such also in the bible. There will not be many Christians that think it is a great idea to stone somebody. Besides that, Islam and Christianity (and Jewish) are religions that are very close to each-other with the same roots in the same God.
I do think that many Muslims have become more ‘Islamic’ since 9/11 though, as the pressure that is put on their religion pushes them more into a corner and isolates them more.
Still, at work I know several Muslims varying in ‘depth’ of their religion. Two Muslim women wear modern Western clothes and no headscarf (and don’t object shaking hands with men.) Only the wife of one of the men wears a headscarf, (while she is Caucasian,) the wife of the other one is of the ‘Western’ type again and not even Muslim I believe. The three couples with children attended a Christian celebration ‘Saint Nick,’ for children. (I did too while I’m not religious, but it is fun for the kids.)
All of these people show outrage about terrorism, and get visibly angry when talking about it, saying that such people insult Allah and disgrace Islam.
But they also feel increasingly threatened in their religious belief, feeling that they might become ‘outcast.’ Not so much in their direct circle of people they meet, but more by what is going on in the world, and also by an anti-Islam movie made by a politician who is doing his very best to create hate between anybody and ALL Muslims.
Sure this is not an argument against the fact that there are insane Imams or suicide terrorists, and I’m all for it to get such idiots and lock them up. But I’m very much against a crusade against Islam, like I’m also very much against any anti-Christian movement even when I’m not a Christian myself. I’m pretty sure most Muslims will gladly help getting rid of terrorists, but they can’t if we consider all Muslims a danger and a terrorist.
I do believe that the average Muslim would fight for their believes, but only in the way I would fight for having the right to be a non-believer, and you for your right to be a Christian.
Having said this I do not really believe that religion is the root behind many problems, but more an excuse. Our neighbors the Belgiums for example, hit each-other over the head for speaking another language, while they widely share the same religion.
I’m afraid that this behavior is quite human. We have been dividing people in ‘them and us’ forever. Even chimps do it: if they meet a chimp from a neighboring group near their territory they rip him apart even when he’s not a threat at all.
But having the military equipment of today this behavior is a tremendous risk for our whole civilization. |
Gloria Marlow
Unity Member
Post Number:
2077
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 11:25 am: | |
Yes, it is the massive destruction each side of any war can cause in a mere blink of the eye that is so frightening.
It seems the "smaller" the world becomes, the less tolerant it becomes. I suppose it was easier to think the differences didn't matter when people were not in close proximity to those who were different.
It seems many in the mideastern (and probably other) countries are concerned with the infiltration of Western ways on their culture, and we would feel the same way if our countries began to change in a negative way toward the ways of another country/people.
I believe you are right that religion may not be the root behind many problems, but in the case of the terrorists, do you consider their "heavenly reward" to be a major factor in why they did what they did, why they were willing to die to do it?
There are groups here that purport to be Christian, but I would not join them in their craziness. A prime example is the Westboro Baptist Church. This is a hateful group that pickets funerals of military killed in action, homosexuals, and anyone else they choose to picket. This is terribly wrong in my opinion, and I don't believe that it is a Christian action, or that they are representative of most Christians or Baptists. They had actually planned to picket the funerals of the little Amish girls killed at school a year ago. They feel things like that are God's punishment to America for letting homosexuals in the military and various other sins they imagine we are all guilty of allowing simply by being America. I do not think picketing the funeral of murdered children is a method Jesus would condone. Yes, the Bible is very clear on what sin is, but it is also very clear that love is an important aspect of what we do. Love for our neighbor, love for our enemy. Although it does speak of homosexuality as being a sin, I don't imagine picketing a funeral in the name of Jesus is going to make the grieving family members want to become Christians anymore than running planes into buildings filled with people is going to make someone want to become Muslim.
It seems to me that on every issue there is someone, such as the politician you mentioned, who is stirring things up into a mess that will cost everyone else dearly, but bring themselves whatever it is they're after: money, power, fame etc. There is always someone fanning the flames of hate and dissidence for their gain. It seems they find the common denominator of those they seek to incite and just keep it going.
www.geocities.com/gloriadmarlow
http://youtube.com/user/gloriamarlow
Flowers for Megan**Shades of Silence**The Butterfly Game
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Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2904
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 12:02 pm: | |
Tom,
You can have it. We're mid 70's,sunny, windy, but nice. Low was 34 last night.
Love it.
George Bush created this weather for us. He can do that, you know!
 |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1802
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 01:07 pm: | |
Gloria:
"I believe you are right that religion may not be the root behind many problems, but in the case of the terrorists, do you consider their "heavenly reward" to be a major factor in why they did what they did, why they were willing to die to do it? "
I'm not sure about that: it seems that not all terrorists were that religious. Some might have done it out of 'idealism,' how sick that may sound from our point of view, (and from the point of view of many Muslims.)
Like there are definitely atheists who are willing to die for causes while they think there will be nothing after they die.
What the Westboro Baptist Church does is indeed sick. I'm certainly not for the Iraq war, but picketing funerals is an insensitive, stupid and simply wrong thing to do. But I believe that people like Dennis try to interfere by sheltering the mourners from the picketers with motorbikes? I noticed you can look up the Westboro Baptists 'picket plan' on their website.
"Although it ( bible) does speak of homosexuality as being a sin, I don't imagine picketing a funeral in the name of Jesus is going to make the grieving family members want to become Christians anymore than running planes into buildings filled with people is going to make someone want to become Muslim."
On the contrary I would believe. Although I think that the planes were not flown into the buildings to motivate people to become Muslim. I think we will need to separate the motivations of the hijackers from the motivations of the planners: this does not need to be the same. Probably the hijackers thought they died for Islam or their way of life, but what the planners like Osama motivated might be different. I once read an interview where he stated that the attack was to drive the US out of the holy land (Saudi Arabia.) But if this was his real motivation?
"It seems to me that on every issue there is someone, such as the politician you mentioned, who is stirring things up into a mess that will cost everyone else dearly, but bring themselves whatever it is they're after: money, power, fame etc."
Completely agree. Perhaps if you are not able to create something great, you feel the need to destroy and leave your mark that way? |
Gloria Marlow
Unity Member
Post Number:
2078
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 07:02 pm: | |
"I think we will need to separate the motivations of the hijackers from the motivations of the planners: this does not need to be the same. Probably the hijackers thought they died for Islam or their way of life, but what the planners like Osama motivated might be different."
I agree, Harry. I think their motivations were very different.I don't know that his motivation is as pure even as driving the US out of the holy land. I guess that is how it is with people such as Osama, Hitler, and others. I think they find the message that will resonate with the people they want to lead and they preach that message as theirs. It is like someone looking for the weakness in a concrete wall. If they find a fissure in the cement and work at it,eventually the crack will widen until the wall crumbles. These leaders find the fissure in people's minds or ways of thinking and they work at it until the wall of humanity crumbles beneath their ideology and those susceptible follow them, thinking those leaders' motivation is true to what they say.
"Perhaps if you are not able to create something great, you feel the need to destroy and leave your mark that way?"
Yes, this does seem to be the way of thinking for some of these mad gunmen. I think the news has even begun to limit the coverage on the gunmen themselves because a few have left messages saying things like "At least, I'll die famous" or something similar. This is a sad commentary on our society.
www.geocities.com/gloriadmarlow
http://youtube.com/user/gloriamarlow
Flowers for Megan**Shades of Silence**The Butterfly Game
|
Gloria Marlow
Unity Member
Post Number:
2079
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 07:03 pm: | |
Bill,
Jeb did the same thing for Florida when he was governor...must be hereditary.
www.geocities.com/gloriadmarlow
http://youtube.com/user/gloriamarlow
Flowers for Megan**Shades of Silence**The Butterfly Game
|
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1803
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 02:17 am: | |
Gloria,
Although we differ in religious and political view and there is an ocean between us, I think we had a adult and meaningful conversation.
That sure gives hope.
Thanks, I really enjoyed it. |
Gloria Marlow
Unity Member
Post Number:
2080
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 06:00 am: | |
No matter political or religious views, people the world over really aren't that different internally. Most all of us find the same things to be important in our lives, have the same sort of fears and the same sort of hopes for the future, etc. If our leaders began to look at those similarities more and the differences less, and used that common ground as the foundation for discussion, there may be more peace and harmony.
It seems this is what we did in our conversation, Harry. I enjoyed it as well. Thank you.
Gloria
www.geocities.com/gloriadmarlow
http://youtube.com/user/gloriamarlow
Flowers for Megan**Shades of Silence**The Butterfly Game
|
Tom Elkins
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
923
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 08:57 am: | |
Bill, Gloria - Of course, it's Global Warming. So is all this mass mayhem, probably. Where's Al Gore when we need him?
Tom Elkins
NORTH of TEXAS
www.authorsden.com/tomelkins |
a1208151894795 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 202.28.27.4
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 07:44 am: | |
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