| Author |
Message |
    
Frank Mazur
Wandering Member
Post Number:
300
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 07:06 am: |   |
Roger Cohen's column in this morning's NY Times is something well worth reading. I recommend it to Harry, Claudia, Bill, Fred, and Stephen, although the rest of you will get a kick out of it too. Go to it with a sense of humor, please.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/opinion/03cohen.html?hp
3-dollar gas. Writers' strike. Read a great book by F. E. Mazur.
SPINE
THE BUCKSELLER
"A BIGGER CASE" |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2917
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 08:52 am: | |
Frank,
I think Cohen exposes the raw truth of a successful society in the article.
Less government, more individual effort (less dependence on government in everyday life) and a willingness to work, but the ability to be rewarded for the work. That's where we have it over most of the European systems. They are so accustomed to a "Big Daddy', a King, a Tyrant, a Dictator, a Heavy-handed government, they don't appreciate the "shoe-shine" theory to success.
However, I take umbrage at his statement about the duration of Republican rule the past twenty years or so. During that same period, the Congress has been mostly dominated by Democrats. Good ole checks and balances.
Nice article. |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1819
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 10:56 am: | |
I don't agree with the guy of-course.
To me shoe shining seems more like a form of begging or a master/slave situation than a success story of free enterprise. It would make me feel very uncomfortable. It's like porters at airports in third world countries dragging your suitcase from the belt hoping for a buck while you can perfectly do that yourself. Over here we shine our own shoes. (Except me: it's about time but I can't find the box with polish...)
Unemployment in the Netherlands is 0,5% lower than in the US. Unemployment depends more on other variables it seems. It also greatly differs per nation.
I do agree with his remark about education in favor of high taxes though. Education is a very important key to the success of a nation. A nation that ignores that will have to pay the price one day.
I certainly don't want to work more hours, I want to live instead. We have a 36 hour work week and quite a few days off: let's keep it that way. At least now I have time to be with my family, write, make music, improve my house, eat out every now and then, sit outside drinking a beer, and post at US writer forums using a broadband internet connection.
Besides that I don't have any debts outside my very manageable mortgage.
So in what is the shoe-shine society so successful? What is better in the US than in the EU? (Only one thing comes to mind: the price of gas!)
Well, I'm off looking for that box of shoe polish... |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2918
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 03:32 pm: | |
Harry,
You, just as us, are comfortable with your system...it's all you've ever known.
However, the American way of life caused mass migration from Europe so people could have a better life. It still is the number one destination for emigrants world wide. Why is that? If other life styles were so good, they wouldn't be pouring into ships and planes (and swimming rivers)to get here.
They come from all sorts of countries around the globe. Why aren't they flocking to your area?
The American experience (more recent history) harnessed the first atomic energy; was first to the moon;pioneered ALL of the current internet workings.
Shining shoes is simply a allusion to starting at the bottom and, with hard dedication and 60 hour work weeks, having the opportunity to rise to the top.
A people who are content with 35 hours of work; who would rather write, make music, drink wine and simply "do their own thing" etc., thinking that is the good life usually don't advance as far and as fast in life as those more dedicated.
That is not an opinion but a fact with countless episodes to support its truth.
The world has never had a society with as much opportunity for the average man as America and it is because of that approach to governing, the one that is so maligned today.
We'll see. The story isn't finished yet. |
Frank Mazur
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
301
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 04:30 pm: | |
While Cohen does favor the shoe shine because it allows for greater freedom of the human spirit, it seems to me a major point of his article is that no ideology can stand, always and forever, exactly as it is defined; that outside forces not completely understood by anyone will cause the wise man or woman to do some tweaking in the direction of a different, even opposing, ideology. Thus, he refers to the excesses of capitalism today and suggests that more government involvement is currently needed, while on the other side of the pond he suggests that a bit more capitalism might be needed by some countries in light of what is happening in other places, like India and China, which could ultimately reduce the importance and influence of those countries in world affairs.
3-dollar gas. Writers' strike. Read a great book by F. E. Mazur.
SPINE
THE BUCKSELLER
"A BIGGER CASE" |
Pacwriter
Unity Member
Post Number:
3153
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 04:50 pm: | |
The USA offers something not found in many other countries -- opportunity.
You can open a shoe-shine stand. Very little capital investment is needed and if you locate your stand in the right place - say, outside the federal courthouse in Washington, D, you can make a good living and branch out by buying a fast-food franchise.
In the USA trade unions don't limit a person's potential. You don't have to join a labor union to work. Government jobs aren't on who you are and who you know but most often available on the basis on education and experience.
It is amazing the number of Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese and other immigrants that come to the USA and open their own business within the first five years. The only people who have problems doing that are the illegals. Every nationality that comes legally seems to prosper quickly and adapt to the new country. The corner store is almost always operated by an immigrant!
Opportunity is what sets the USA apart. Government regulation is fair, taxes are reasonable and work hours up to the individual. It is not uncommon to talk with people who have TWO jobs. The shoe shine business is as successful as you are willing to work.
http://www.perrycomer.com
|
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2919
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 05:20 pm: | |
None of the aforementioned work a 35 hour week.
I dated a girl out in California who was the granddaughter of Greek immigrants.
Her grandfather and great-uncle came to the US and made their living collecting garbage. They threw it in the back of their truck, drove to the dump and swept it out and then returned to pick up more.
At the time I met her, her family fortune was in the millions. The two Greeks had one of the largest trash disposal businesses on the west coast and were branching out into maritime salvage, an even bigger money maker.
Had those gentlemen looked at trash pick up as begging or beneath their station or wanted to work only 35 hours a week, none of their success would have ensued.
They were not looking for government hand outs. They wanted opportunity.
It's in attitude, personal or national. |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3227
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 06:23 pm: | |
I built a cable tv company in 1981-82 from absolutely nothing but an idea and a good background knowledge, from when I worked at Hughes Aircraft Company, in the future of the oncoming cable tv ability. I had absolutely no money at all, not even enough to pay for a first deposit on the rental of the house that I now own. I saw a need (in a valley that had no TV reception) and went door to door and asked the occupant if they wanted a cable tv company in this valley. That was the very firt itme I had ever met anyone here as I had just moved into the valley. They said YES, and I asked them to give me $100.00 each and I would build it for them. They coughed up between all the residents here, $10,000.00 to get me started. The first year the company was in business, we had an 87% hook-up rate and made $120,000.00 with $80,000.00 profit. I went out and got a job at the local water company as the Comptroller and put my husband to work as the water-master and we moved into the community. I didn't have any experience in building that sort of company, but I had a will and a desire to do what I was doing and they saw it and backed me. When the company was sold a mere 4 1/2 years later it was valued at $1,400,000.00 (yes, that is MILLION) dollars. That first year was hell, and I worked long hard hours and built our first dish in our front yard in a blistering snow storm riveting the damn thing together while I was freezing. I had an idiot husband who didn't even know how to sign a check and had no other actual business experience and he tried his damndest to bankrupt the company while we were going through our divorce, but he couldn't succeed. I dug trenches to run cable, and learned how to bore under roads and string cable and set up channels to hone in on the satellite and read all kinds of instruments and set dish parameters in line of sight to pick up off-air signals and all sorts of things but it was all worth it. I was put on boards for safety and communications for the State so that I could tell others how to be informed about hazards and emergencies, because I learned my products so well.
That is what America is, the ability to do something even though everyone says you can't. That is the difference between Americans and others in this world, in my opinion. I worked long hard hours and built something that will always be a monument to my determination and will. No one can ever take that away from me. I succeeded where someone else would have surely failed, because I wanted it bad enough. The (any) government can't give a person the will to do what is their dream or desire, because the government takes that away from everyone it touches, by supplying them with every opportunity to fail and wanting freebies more but not be willing to get it the hard way.
Claudia
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
|
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3228
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 07:00 pm: | |
And that story is just to prove that in America, all is possible, even for a share-croppers daughter. If I could have kept the company and held onto it despite the divorce, it would now be worth a whopping $21-27,000,000.00. Unfortunately, the company was sold during the divorce and I could NOT keep it because of a court order, not because of mis-management or anything even remotely akin to that, extending from greed from my ex-husband, nothing more. ALl that to say, anything is possible, if you have little government intervention (even though I had to climb through all sorts of hoops and rules at the time governing cable TV and communications) and lots of will to succeed and an infallible idea.
Anyone can have their dream come true, if they are willing to try their best, but people who are just content to ask for the man to give them everything they need, will never accomplish anything, in my opinion.
Claudia
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
|
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2042
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 11:21 pm: | |
I find the topic denigrating. Those who resort to shining shoes (as I did when I was in the US Army) usually do so because of unfortunate circumstances. I am reminded of the starving street children in developing nations who shine tourists' shoes for a pittance.
I might mention that I have not worn shoes, sandals or boots in more than five years. As Harry is with me on this particular issue I urge him - and anyone else who thinks that shining shoes is demeaning and/or exploitive - to do likewise.
Anyone who maintains that shining shoes is an exercise in entrepeneurship by which the shoeshine boy can lift himself from poverty by his own bootstraps, should get down on his knees and apply Shinola with his toothbrush to a barracks floor, after which we will have a drill sergeant purposely scuff it up.
http://www.fdungan.com/draft.htm |
Pacwriter
Unity Member
Post Number:
3154
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 05:06 am: | |
Been there and done that and it didn't hurt me. Went to Nam too, came back in one piece. GI Bill got me through college and most of seminary.
I've been to several "3'rd world" places and prefer those over the civilized places where people wait for the welfare checks.
As a kid I shined shoes. Was glad to share those duties at a local barbershop with two other boys. I learned about hard work and learned about true generosity. Made some money in the army shining shoes for others who couldn't get the hang of spit-polish. So, what I learned as a kid I applied as a young adult. The guys in my barracks appreciated my skill.
Welfare in the United States shows us that when you take away the incentive to work that you rob people of their incentive to achieve. My daughter,34, is a prime example. Rather than get a job with benefits and decent pay she takes a low pay job so she maintains the free health care for her two kids, the food stamps, the WIC vouchers and the rent subsidy. Makes me mad as hell because she has three years of college and was married to guy making over 100k a year but divorced him so she could date younger guys. But, she is an example of the mindset that now is america.
http://www.perrycomer.com
|
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1820
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 09:09 am: | |
To all:
I can’t respond in turn like you all do as I’m sleeping while you are awake and the other way around. So when I wake up I see all your reactions at once. Only late in the evening I can respond right away.
The responses were too diverse to react in one post, so sorry for the multiple posts. It is an interesting topic though, so perhaps I got a bit carried away. Just skip what is not of your interest. |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1821
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 09:11 am: | |
Bill:
It is of-course true that in the past many Europeans lived in horrible conditions, emigrated to America (or Canada, or Australia or New Zealand) and found a much better life there.
But the Europe and the America of that time does not exist anymore. The situation has changed drastically over the years.
Today people from all over the world emigrate to nations all over the world, not only to the US. (You could have checked yourself at the CIA factbook.) Europe is swamped as well by emigrants from other nations for economic reasons, freedom or safety, and a small portion simply because they fell in love with a European. (It does happen...)
Indeed atomic technology was first developed in the USA, but under supervision of the Italian Enrico Fermi. (Chicago Pile 1942)
The first to the moon: indeed a great and inspiring achievement. But would you have succeeded without Werner von Braun and the captured V2’s?
The internet is indeed initiated by the US but later other existing networks from all over the world connected up to it and contributed. Today the fastest growing broadband networks can be found outside of the US in Europe and Asia.
In my opinion it is not “the American experience” at work but simply the sheer size and recourses of the USA that made it possible to support such projects.
For example: Russia had the first man in space without “the American experience,” quite the opposite even. If the gifted Korolev, USSR’s “Werner von Braun,” hadn’t died early they might have beaten you to the moon too. Again: sheer size and recourses that make it possible.
What could have been achieved if those geniuses from both sides would have been able to work together using the combined recourses!
And about workweeks of 36 hours and advancements: what do you call advancement?
It is a fact that effectivity drops with long hours, so there is not a linear connection between hours and productivity.
If that would be true the GDP of the EU should be lower than the USA and it isn’t anymore.
A few ages ago people worked around the clock to keep their families barely alive. It was part of those horrible conditions that drove people out of Europe! They had no time, money or possibility to advance anywhere or develop themselves or they didn’t had a job at all and thus no money.
I am able to keep my family well fed (too well fed perhaps,) send my children to a proper school and still have the opportunity to do something creative. Besides dedication to my kids I am dedicated to writing a good book and making good music. I have the opportunity to do so, so it is only up to me if it fails or not. All I can do is give it my best shot and I can’t blame the circumstances if I fail.
My ancestors might have had many talents, but they simply could never achieve what I can simply because in those days they were way too busy staying alive, let alone write books or create music. They walked home from work, ate a bit or perhaps not, and fall exhausted into their primitive shaky beds. Only very rich kids could study.
If you want to build a company here from scratch you can. Many did and many will. And if you work real hard and have some luck and insight you might make it to be a millionaire. I have no idea why many Americans think that starting enterprises is only a US character trade? I actually think that Asians beat Americans in that game. (I visited the USA AND quite a few Asian countries.)
I do admit that if you start to make billions here in Europe you will need to emigrate to the USA to avoid heavy tax, as tax goes up in % when you earn more. But you will have reached a comfort zone long way before that I think.
The success stories of a few do not represent the vast majority. Most people who start out poor in their life will stay poor. Poverty blocks development and when you lack education you will have more problems seizing an opportunity.
I agree that you should be able to make a decent living, but is getting rich what it is all about in life? |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1822
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 09:12 am: | |
Frank,
I do agree that there is room for improvement of free enterprise in Europe. In fact my government is stimulating free enterprise by giving starters of a business advice and try to smoothen out laws that might get in the way with that. I’m all for stimulating those small enterprises. But I don’t believe that there is such a vast difference between Europe and the USA in that respect to start your own business. I do believe that we have more rules and regulations.
On the other hand you should definitely reign in the really big companies as some of them are completely out of control and mess up society real good. One might argue that they provide jobs, but usually the bulk of those jobs will be in a cheap labor countries anyway. So some of those rules and regulations are needed to keep it all in balance.
I’m afraid that I didn’t quite get that message of Cohen. |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1823
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 09:16 am: | |
Perry,
Everybody could start a shoe shining stand in Europe too if they would like. But I’m afraid that business might not be great: most people would feel embarrassed to have somebody else shine their shoes and would consider it a form of begging. It is perhaps that symbolic situation of somebody groveling at your feet to survive that makes it uncomfortable for some but would make others feel superior? That might be a cultural thing I don’t know. And such situations can change as time has learned.
I actually can’t remember seeing shoe shiners in the US when I was there? But we drove in from Canada by car and did not use any US airports, perhaps that was the reason?
Nobody needs to be a union member to work here in the Netherlands, in fact the majority is NOT a union member. That is completely up to you and the employer isn’t even allowed to ask you about union membership when they hire you.
You only need to be a member of the EU or have a workpermit to work here.
It will be very difficult, if not impossible here to find a government job without the correct education, abilities and papers.
Connections might help getting a job when you already have the above mentioned in place, but I suppose that this is no different in the US?
And Perry: you would be surprised by the number of Chinese restaurants here in Europe! Indeed Asians quickly set up their business, but that is all over the world and not solely in the USA. It is really worth the effort to travel abroad more. You are always welcome to visit my house and I will gladly show you around!
You say that work hours are up to the individual, and that some even have two jobs. Do you think most of them choose to work long hours and two jobs, or do you think they simply have to in order to survive?
It is something else if you work long hours doing something you like; writing a book for instance. But nobody will stop you from doing that. If you start your own business you can work as long as you want. The hour regulations are only there to protect employees.
Welfare should only serve as a safety net and not as a blank cheque. That would indeed take away all incentive to work. It is not like that in most European nations: you need to prove you are actively looking for a proper job. |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1824
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 09:17 am: | |
Claudia,
I gather from your story that you are rich now if it is that easy to set up a business and succeed? Even if your husband destroyed the first ones it should not be difficult to do it again?
People all over the world of all races and backgrounds start their own businesses and with hard work try to make it to the top. It is simply not true that this is a typical American trade. How do all those non-American companies come into existence (look at the products in your shops!)
Although I do consider it possible, I sincerely doubt that many shoe shiners make it to be a millionaire. I think a large majority will stay shoe shiners all their life. (I don’t mean that literally of-course, it’s just about the level of income.)
In fact:
“According to a study of The Pew Charitable Trusts, the intergenerational mobility in United States is quite low, comparatively to some other countries: mobility is 1.2 times higher in France, 1.5 in Germany, 2.5 in Canada and 3.2 in Denmark. In the same way, the "Center for American Progress" reports that "Intergenerational mobility in the United States is lower than in France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway and Denmark. Among high-income countries for which comparable estimates are available, only the United Kingdom had a lower rate of mobility than the United States”
So if your dad was a shoe shiner in the US, you most probably will be a shoe shiner too for the rest of your life. You would need to emigrate to Denmark to have a better chance of escaping that life. The American dream seems to be more valid outside of America in a nation with socialistic tendencies!
And that it IS possible does not mean that it will work out that way. For most people the American dream will stay just that: a dream. No matter how hard they work.
In the USA, the wealthiest one percent of households now control a third of the national wealth. The wealthiest 10 percent control two-thirds of it. The gap between the poor and rich is now so wide that it becomes increasingly difficult to bridge. Most of the poor are simply too deep down the ladder to ever be able to climb out!
In this case there would be nothing wrong by taxing the filthy rich (not middle class) a bit more to support the really poor and get the children of those poor into educational programs and out of poverty. Only THEN they will have a serious chance to make something out of their life instead of some vague unrealistic promise.
But as I said to Bill too, of-course there is nothing wrong with working to provide for your family, it is even essential. There is also nothing wrong with starting your own business. But is getting rich the most important success in life?
I think that when you have enough money to have a good life for you and your family it is time to enjoy that good life. Before you know it your life will be over! Perhaps your kids and grandkids will have a great time wasting your money, like Paris Hilton and all those other spoiled brats I can’t even remember who received much more money than love.
To me life is much more than money. To me money is a tool to have a good and creative life.
(I don’t receive any government hand-outs by the way, besides that we have a lower unemployment rate than the US, so a lower percentage receives ‘hand-outs’ here than in the USA. We are deducting some tax for having children.)
I think it is insane to try and gain millions if that means that you don’t have time for your family anymore or to create something. So perhaps when you own millions your kids all have three cars, you’ll have the family yacht and private jet, but you have no idea what your children feel, think or do. You might need to ask your servants to get some idea of that. And when you die you will leave nothing but money.
Is that success? |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1825
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 09:19 am: | |
Fred,
Well, we simply agree on the shoe shine entrepreneurship.
I might add that there is absolutely no shame for the shoe shiner, but I do think that when people need to resort to shining shoes there is something wrong with their opportunities that might not be their fault.
I think shoe shining is a waste of human talent and skills. It is something a machine should do and not a human being.
And looking at all my posts I start to feel like a spammer...
Again sorry everybody, if you have a better idea please tell me... |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2920
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 09:48 am: | |
We've come full circle here. We're back to EU vs. USA again.
History proves (nay, the Universe proves) that ALL "things" reach a zenith and are in decline thereafter, nations included. Perhaps the USA has reached its zenith and is now in a downward spiral. Europe did it hundreds of years ago. Perhaps the NEW Europe, the EU is on the upswing, who knows. They still depend on American military for protection and, to a large extent, economic survival. Will that change in the NEAR future, no. In the DISTANT future, perhaps.
Yes, all people aspire to enough food and a few goodies to make life worth living. That's not exclusive to any nationality.
My objection to your approach to life is that its too libertine. However, if it works for you, that's fine. Allow those in the US the same
and knock off the constant criticism of all things American and we'll get along just fine. |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1828
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 09:54 am: | |
I allow you all things American Bill, I simply state my opinion.
Indeed civilizations rise and fall, nothing new about that, but what does that statement add to the discussion?
I have stated many, many times that indeed Europe should have its own military, but the USA is very much against it. Still the EU is moving in its own direction military wise.
Concerning the economy the USA is depending on China, while Europe is influenced by the USA it has a larger GDP by now than the USA. |
Pacwriter
Unity Member
Post Number:
3155
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 09:58 am: | |
Harry it all comes down to the individual. If you are a person who loves to work and has the inner capacity to achieve you will no matter where you live.
Having done traveled to several countries it is very plain the standard of living and the opportunities in the USA are greater. Japan, for example, is very limited in opportunity because of their culture. Same is true in India. Yet, in both countries, some individuals overcome culture and chaste to achieve and find opportunity.
A friend of mine in the is an exporter (automobiles)to his native Belgium. He has just applied for citizenship. When I asked him why he said, "My country is beautiful but like most of Europe still backwards. I was here only a short while before I understood how different my country was to the United States. Here I can do almost anything."
Mark, that's his name, began buying used autos and shipping them back to Europe. Now he has moved up to shipping Hummers, large trucks and luxury autos. He has even shipped firetrucks and ambulances. The dollar to euro makes a huge profit at the moment.
The point is, opportunity is almost overwhelming in the US as opposed to other countries. And you ask, "If that is so then why does the US have poor and welfare?" The answer lies with the individual. Most of my generation and older came into this world at a time when the WASP (White Anglo Saxon Protestant) work ethic was hammered into our lives. Until the 1960's, children in this country were taught to hold responsibility, to respect others and institutions, that work was noble. As I said, as a child (9-10 years old) I shined shoes. It was anything but begging,I was praised for my work ethic. That was how it was but now the kids are sophisticated and work, any work, is beneath them. They expect great pay just for showing up. To actually work is demeaning.
When you read in the papers and watch the TV news about protesters in the US, about the drug use and the failing education rates, keep in mind these are children of the sixties generation who don't have a work ethic, national pride or the desire to achieve. Getting high and getting laid are their only goals. So many are expecting an inheritance from their parents and grandparents to get them through the middle years and after that they expect the government to take care of them if they haven't died of drug overdose, drunk driving or other sophisticated death.
In the near future, the US will be a shell of a once great nation. Between the liberal politicians promising huge government care programs and the lobbying former politicians for BIG CORPORATIONS, we are doomed to become a third world nation to be torn apart into bickering nation states. What communism and fascism could not do greed is doing.
So Harry, don't tear us down more we are doing a good job of it ourselves. An when our ruin is complete we will call on the UN and the EU to rebuild. Oh, and if some dictator arises in Russia or China and starts taking over the world, the EU will have to fight them or maybe try the appeasement route.
There are those in the world that delight in the thoughts of a ruined United States. I would that our leaders cut off aid to other countries, withdraw our armed forces from Europe, Asia and the Middle East. That we place high taxes on imports, use our oil and coal instead of imports. Stop the grain exports and feed our people. End all immigration. And, stop the influx of those coming for the education opportunities they can't get in their home countries. In other words become more like CHINA.
http://www.perrycomer.com
|
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1829
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 10:43 am: | |
I'm not tearing you down Perry, nor would I want to see the America's downfall.
What is ruining the USA, and probably also Europe one day, is the corrupt power of big money. Indeed you can do anything when you already have money, but nothing if you don't. Also the tax climate in the USA is ideal for the rich.
Of-course people must get payed according to their responsibility and difficulty of their jobs, but I think that too much difference in pay between the rich and the rest paralyzes a nation.
If it will be very difficult for the poor to get an education it will be very hard to work their way up like indeed you once could do in the US.
The American dream of working your way up from rags to riches is now 3,5 times easier in Denmark than in the US, while once this was probably the other way around.
It is not important how rich the richest people are, but how poor the poorest. There is a limit on how far and how many people can work their way up from poverty. If you grow up in poverty your chances are much slimmer than if you grow up in a reasonable economic climate.
What needs to be done is that ALL nations tackle the biggest problem of this time together: energy.
There is no time left for big egos and nationalism. We are all in this together.
The downfall of one nation will have its effect on the others. |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3782
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 04, 2008 - 04:25 pm: | |
I'll be stepping back to watch from the shadows momentarily, but I thought I'd pop in for a moment...
Harry, you brought up two examples: Germany's creation of the V2 and the Soviets making it first into space.
Just wanted to mention those two pieces of history were brought about by "competition" (the first being WWII, the second being the Cold War). In a true socialist society, there is no "competition" because everyone receives identical returns for their effort, whether they put forth little or much.
Back to the shadows...
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Blog |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1830
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 01:48 am: | |
None of the nations in Europe work that way. A European Doctor earns much more than a European burger flipper, and that is the way it should be, nothing wrong with that.
What 'European' or perhaps 'Nordic' socialism (welfare capitalism?) means is that the burger flipper should not have to struggle to survive, but can make a living being a burger flipper, and could study to work his way up.
It is all about the gap between poor and rich.
Is the gap too narrow there indeed will be little incentive, at most honor or personal gratification for achievement.
(This is actually still a huge factor, I still do my best to write my books as well as possible while I realize that it is unlikely to make me rich!)
If the gap is too wide between poor and rich, a large portion of the population will go down the drain.
In contrary to popular believe there IS a limit to what people can actually achieve in reality. Everybody has a limited supply of intelligence, energy and luck. With that you can work your way up to a certain hight.
If you start in the gutter you will never get as far, not even relatively, as if you started out from an average family, or you would need some more luck. Poverty is a waste of talent as most poor people will never be able to reach their potential in reality.
The fact that a few do means little if the great majority simply can't. |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3784
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 07:26 am: | |
But when the burger flipper realizes he can do next to nothing and still make enough to survive, what is his incentive to work hard (or "work his way up")?
As Perry mentioned, there is a generational gap going on. The pervasive mentality (at least with American youth) is that they are entitled to receive a lot of money for doing almost nothing. Couple that with the aforementioned "give them enough to survive, regardless of their job" and you have a recipe for disaster.
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Blog |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2483
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 12:49 pm: | |
I've been very silent for a long time but I'll once again voice my opinion and likely be rebuked by higher management and this thread will be closed.
I vehemently disagree with Harry's statement that a person who starts in the gutter will never get very far. Chances are, very few will become affluent but our society leaves the door open to ALL of them to improve their lot, at least to a good livable standard. What is holding them back is THEIR OWN CULTURE.
In Detroit, the city where I grew up, education is FREE. Every child is gauranteed a K-12 education. But... 75% of those who start high school drop out by their own choice. 75%!!! America gives them the opportunity; they have to accept it.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com
http://theunrealmccoy.blogspot.com |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1831
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 01:46 pm: | |
I would not know why this thread should be closed as in my eyes it is quite a civilized conversation?
I never said never Dennis, just that it is unlikely for somebody at the bottom of the pit to climb as far as somebody higher up on the social ladder.
A few generations of poverty will definitely make a majority of people feel like losers, and they will start to behave accordingly. They will simply not see the chances somebody else who did not grow up in such poverty might see in the same circumstances.
I can imagine that parents who did not study themselves might not have any idea to stimulate their children to study? Besides that the circumstances to study at home might be far from ideal?
That is why a society needs safety nets to avoid whole generations from falling into a black hole.
In the USA the gap between the poor and the rich is way too wide, or more precisely: the poor are too poor for too long. OR Americans should be indeed be a different breed than say the Danish, where intergenerational mobility is 3 times higher than in the USA. Meaning that 3 times as much people in Denmark DO manage to climb up the social ladder compared to the US.
But if you would need to work two jobs to survive it seems clear to me that getting out of that situation will indeed not be impossible, but you need a more than average energy and will power and luck.
How would you explain that difference between 'socialist' Denmark and the USA?
Todd,
Perhaps some burger flippers might be happy with what they make. Why shouldn't that be OK? But quite a few would like more out of life, regardless of the money. Money certainly isn't the only motivation according to Maslow and Herzberg once you have enough to survive. If the poor do not need to struggle to survive at least they will have the time and energy to improve themselves. A constant struggle makes that nearly impossible or at least extremely hard. |
Frank Mazur
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
302
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 02:20 pm: | |
"Leave the ball, George." Harry is correct in saying this is and has been "quite a civilized conversation."
I provided the link to the Cohen column because he was addressing in a general way the contemporary problems on both sides of the Atlantic pond. While he favored the American view, he allowed there were current bad excesses that could be corrected with some of the government intervention that is now employed in some countries in Europe. At the same time he provided a balanced view—notwithstanding it's an opinion piece, which doesn't require one—and gave some evidence that France and some others might take a few bits out of our work culture. I think there's been rather good exploratory discussion here of these matters by those posting.
3-dollar gas. Writers' strike. Read a great book by F. E. Mazur.
SPINE
THE BUCKSELLER
"A BIGGER CASE" |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2921
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 03:20 pm: | |
Harry, you seem to be quite the economics expert. Perhaps your talent could be used closer to home, say, France. Their ghettos are spilling into the streets because the govt. wants them to work harder for their money. What's their problem?
Do you have a French website that you can point out their ills? Or, perhaps write a blog on one of the Arabic publications. You have more "facts" and figures than the State Department. I do point out, however, that most of your information is somewhat slanted. To be more balanced perhaps you should read more Ann Coulter or Sean Hanratty. Perhaps a little Rush Limbaugh. Then, you would truly be an unbiased observer. Dig into the early years of Obama and his education in his formative years, where he went to school and what kind of curriculum they offered. That's interesting. After all, he just might be the next president of the country you are preoccupied with.
 |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2484
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 03:26 pm: | |
Harry... Understand this; the Danish are Danes and the Americans are Americans. Two distinctly different cultures What works in Denmark will not automatically work in the United States. Their social challenges are completely different from ours so forget about trying to apply their methods and values over here. We don't think like Danes.
That lesson was learned in the auto industry when the big three tried to run their factories like the Japanese. Our auto workers aren't Japanese and don't respond to Japanese methods. It failed and is still failing.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com
http://theunrealmccoy.blogspot.com |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3785
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 03:40 pm: | |
Harry,
Instead of comparing a burger flipper to a doctor, compare burger flipper A to burger flipper B.
Burger flipper A comes to work, does next to nothing, cashes a paycheck.
Burger flipper B comes to work, does a lot of hard work, cashes the same paycheck.
In my view, B should earn more than A...
But under the "pay enough to survive" theory, both would make the same amount. B would see this and ask himself "why am I busting my butt?" In theory, he would then change his tune and do next to nothing, same as A.
Substitute "engineer" for "Burger flipper" and you have a situation like we do at work...in most areas. That's what makes me think it's the pervasive mentality of a "do as little as you can to get by" attitude.
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Blog |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1832
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 09:30 am: | |
Frank,
I never delved very deep into what might wrong in France, it appears rather complex. They have a high unemployment of 8% but poverty (6%) is not too bad (yet.) I would say their tourists business brings in quite a bit. Their transition from intensive governmental control to open market seems a bit bumpy.
We have a saying here in Europe: “he is living like God in France.” It means someone is living a pleasant life without any needs.
Another saying is: “he did it the French way,” which is certainly not a compliment, it means doing the job only half or very sloppy.
With all that French kissing they don’t have time to work I suppose? ; )
Keeping the right amount of government interference is indeed a difficult task: too much and you will end up with a riggid society where progress stops, too little and you will end up with some kind of anarchy where big money rules. |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1833
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 09:31 am: | |
Bill,
The tone of your post and your sudden diversion into several different subtopics gives me the feeling that I have irritated you again, is that correct?
France: check my post to Frank.
For the rest of your topics it might be better if you started a new thread as they seem rather diverse and off-topic perhaps? |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1834
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 09:31 am: | |
Dennis,
I agree that it is always problematic to ‘transplant’ a way of working to other cultures. But I think the Japanese have quite an unique culture al together, while the cultures of the West are more homogenous. So I would not expect the Danish to be very different from Americans, but indeed they will not be excactly the same. It is always worth to see how they run things and investigate what could be learned from that, although some tweaking would be needed to adapt to the situation.
I think that my nation also can learn much from the Nordics. |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1835
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 09:31 am: | |
Todd,
I agree that the harder you work the more payment you should receive, absolutely no problem with that. If burger flipper A does next to nothing he simply deserves to be fired. Now that should keep flipper B motivated I think...
Working two jobs for a pittence offers the poor lots of incentive perhaps but hardly a realistic chance to better themselves.
In my opinion you need to increase the lowest payment enough to survive and and that way give people a proper change to better themselves.
If they will take that chance or not will be a total different story altogether, but at least the chance is there. Every now and then someone will seize the opportunity and improve.
For some surviving will be enough. I have no problem with that, that too is a choice.
The ‘ do as little as you can to get by” attitude indicates that it is time to look for a more fitting job. If you like your job and get by you will pay less attention to the money. People also need respect and personal pride in what they are doing. |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2923
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 10:13 am: | |
Harry,
I have to admit that...yes..you have irritated me again. You just don't seem to understand (or, perhaps you really do) that coming onto an American website and constantly ridiculing my country and my way of life in what you call "discussions" is an irritant. You honestly don't see the same treatment in return unless it's in defense of something you initiate.
I think you delight in pissing us off and do it by design. Either that are you are really obtuse.
I, for one, do not appreciate your comments and their innuendo. |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1837
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 10:54 am: | |
Well, Bill.
I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm not forcing anybody into a discussion.
I must say that until now I enjoyed the level of the discussion. |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page