| Author |
Message |
    
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1871
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 01:40 pm: |   |
"Bill just said Harry was right about something! "
 |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2060
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 07:13 pm: | |
I beg to disagree. Gasoline itself is not flammable. It's the vapors that catch fire and make it explode. Thus, a full tank of gasoline is less likely to explode than a tank that is 30 percent full. Hydrogen is already a gas and will explode with the least spark. In fact the crew of the Hindenberg wore specially designed clothing and rubber boots in order to prevent static energy from igniting the hydrogen.
I know this because I made hydrogen in a test tube in the late 1950's and that was the end of my chemistry set. Don't believe me? Go ahead, test it yourself. Of course they tell you it's safe. They would also like for you to believe that Bill didn't have sex with Monica and we aren't in a recession. There are no hydrogen filling stations for other than commercial purposes because they have yet to find a way to safely dispense it without an attendant. One little spark and it is bye-bye Brooklyn, hello heaven!
http://www.fdungan.com/such.htm |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2935
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 08:21 pm: | |
Your governor said there were "several" up and down the 101 and more under construction. ?????????
"Hydrogen is extremely flammable. It is easily ignited by heat, sparks or flames. Hydrogen also has an extremely low ignition-energy requirement. A 20-ìJ spark can ignite a stoichiometric hydrogen/air mixture. (This is 10 times less than what is required to ignite a gasoline/air mixture.)"
I stand corrected, Fred. You are correct.
See, I knew Harry was wrong all the time.
 |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1872
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 01:37 am: | |
You are wrong Bill. 
I only talked about the cause of the Hindenburg disaster, and not about the flammability of hydrogen. If the Hindenburg would have been filled with Helium it would have come down too, with less heat though, as of course the Hydrogen DID ignite eventually, AFTER the paint caught fire. Anyway: hydrogen was NOT the cause.
But Fred's point was that hydrogen is dangerous. In the Hindenburg days it indeed was, even when hydrogen was not the cause. But I do not believe that this view is valid today when proper modern day equipment is used.
I agree with Fred that filling requires some thought. Perhaps you could change tanks instead of filling it? But I am pretty sure that there are safe solutions to storing hydrogen. For example storing in glass micro spheres, nanotubes, chemical binding etc.
I still think the main problem is the needed energy to create hydrogen.
Or perhaps more so the need for humanity to start to think and act long-term in stead of very short-term. A task probably too difficult for our weakly controlled animal emotions, but we have to give it a shot anyway. |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2492
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 04:04 am: | |
Seems as if we've had this Hindenberg discussion before. There has been decades of study and debate over the cause and primary fuel in this tragedy. Both sides (Hydrogen vs Paint) had strong arguments and the films have been studied more often than Franco Harris's "Immaculate Reception." If memory serves me, the experts (based on flame patterns and time lapse) eventually laid the lions share of the blame on the hydrogen.
My personal experience with hydrogen tells me that it's quite volatile.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com
http://theunrealmccoy.blogspot.com |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2936
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 09:21 am: | |
Harry, I am never wrong! I may not always be right, but never wrong!
A great idea would be to install pedals (like in kiddy-cars). We could eliminate pollution concerns and lose weight at the same time...
 |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3261
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 09:43 am: | |
And I concur with Dennis on this, simply because of all the people here on this board, he and Fred have shared the risk more in using fuel derivatives and bases for the work and jobs they have done. Specifically, I know that Dennis has a lot of time testing and racing engines in boats, motorcycles and cars and that says to me that he knows what he is talking about in this area.
IF there were a way to produce the Hydrogen and carefully keep it in a safe, away from other volatile parts of the running engine that would not significantly increase the overall cost of the auto that was being made, and kept it perfectly safe for the consumer to use and made the overall running of the engine cheaper and longer lasting, then and only then would it become a viable alternative to the gas engine. I also studied this a bit when I was in college Physics labs, as my grandfather wanted me to take over his business that he had from his development of the Air brakes for trains and trucks for Westinghouse. He wanted me to become an engineer and so I studied some of the important things like engines and brake systems.
For Hydrogen use on a commercial basis to actually become a real situation, you have to remember that the majority of people don't know or really care about the safety issues of the fuel that they put into a vehicle, they go about it mechanically, with little or no thought, and from what I know about Hydrogen, it takes thought and skill to use it in any form, and that would simply take too much effort and time for the average person to ever fully embrace it in an everyday situation. People like simple and easy, and Hydrogen is NOT simple and easy, unless the developers can put together a core that you buy and replace every so often, as needed and then that would have to be cheaper than gasoline to get the people and keep them coming back. Add to that the cost would have to be cheap, the mileage would also have to be high so that people could go on a trip or fill that core every week or so, which means for many people, about 500 to 1000 (on the high end for trips, etc) miles per core. Remember we have a very spoiled society, and it is not one that likes to bother with more than it has to every day to get to and from where they have to be. The main reason electric cars aren't more popular is because the user has to plug them into a service port every time they drive them from place to place and that itself is just too much effort for the average consumer, plus the cost of the electricity has gone up exponentially, to cover higher usage all over the world, also.
Claudia
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
|
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2937
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 10:32 am: | |
Excerpt from an article on Geocities.
"Most people think of hydrogen, they think of the first atom on the periodic table, the Hindenburg, and maybe even the hydrogen bomb, but there is much more to hydrogen. On earth the hydrogen atom contains a single proton, around which orbits a single electron. It is also the world’s lightest, most abundant, and most explosive element. For these reasons it is also the most useful, both for its lifting ability, as well as its explosive power. In fact the sun burns up 11 billion pounds of hydrogen every second (McAlister). It was through this burning of hydrogen that photosynthesis created the very fossil fuel we so enjoy today.
Hydrogen is considered an “energy storage medium,” much like batteries, (Camp) and can be made quite simply. The best method would be to take electricity to split (electrolyze) water into hydrogen and oxygen. This could be done on a large scale in a hydrogen plant. The US currently produces 100 billion cubic feet per year of hydrogen for industry, and the space program (McAlister).
Hydrogen is the heart of all hydro carbon fuels (fossil fuels) pure hydrogen and carbon can be extracted. Carbon is a very reusable resource and is known for its light weight and strength (Camp). Carbon would most likely be implemented as a method for storing hydrogen, rather than using the traditional steel tank, which isn't as safe. A newer, hi-tech method called, "carbon fiber" can be used to store hydrogen. Currently this method of extracting hydrogen from oil is preferred due to its high efficiency, which means most hydrogen used today is derived from a fossil fuel, but this will change. Basically anything that operates on a flame like a gas stove, or anything that operates on a explosion like a internal combustion engine, anything that runs off electricity or could be run by a battery, done through a fuel cell, or anything else that doesn’t fit into those three categories. Hydrogen can truly run anything that consumes energy of any kind, in any shape or form."
NASA uses Hydrogen for power, making drinking water etc.
Properly used with all the safety precautions, it can easily be handled.
To say it is VERY volatile is do discount our technological abilities. |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3822
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 12:12 pm: | |
Maybe Southern California will go up in a big ball of fire...
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Website
Aston's Blog |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
4515
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 03:29 pm: | |
What about the car I've seen advertised on TV that runs on water vapor?? Is that all it runs on, or is it a hybrid? I liked the sound of that, but jeez, that doesn't make sense for car companies to make a car that cheap to run. Does anyone know anything about it?
Laurel Johnson
http://laureljohnsonblogs.blogspot.com
|
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3823
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 08:14 pm: | |
I think Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles put out water vapor as exhaust, but I could be mistaken.
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Website
Aston's Blog |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2061
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 10:13 pm: | |
If you live anywhere near Savannah, Georgia, it might interest you to know that in 1958 a B-47 collided with an F-86 Sabrejet and dumped a hydrogen bomb in shallow waters off Hilton Head. The government attempted to recover it in 2004 but the effort was discontinued after a two day search. Presumably, it is still there, buried in the silt, waiting for the right moment to destroy the aquifer and everyone and everything else within a 150 mile radius. There are 11 other hydrogen bombs that have been lost in US coastal waters -- 60 worldwide. I was the ghost writer for the non-fiction book, Chasing Loose Nukes by Colonel Derek L. Duke (as told to Fred Dungan), http://www.fdungan.com/duke.htm.
One hydrogen bomb is capable of ruining the day, week, month, year, decade, century, and millennia (half life of radioactivity is even longer for some elements) for you and your loved ones. The Savannah bomb is huge -- a Doomsday Device -- if you have ever seen Dr. Strangelove you have an idea of how much damage this mk15 thermonuclear weapon could do. The case is forged aluminum (six inches thick) but there are bolt holes near the fins, and Colonel Duke suspects it will sooner or later begin to leak its radioactive contents into the ocean.
Happy, happy hydrogen to you and yours on this Happy Mother's Day.
Chasing Loose Nukes http://www.dunganbooks.com/duke.htm |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1873
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 01:41 am: | |
A hydrogen bomb releases atomic energy, while the use of hydrogen itself will be based on releasing chemical energy.
Of course there is no question about the flammability of hydrogen, but that does not need to pose much of a problem in this time and age. |
Joyce Scarbrough
Unity Member
Post Number:
1265
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 10:40 am: | |
Dang, y'all is smart! 
~Joyce Sterling Scarbrough
True Blue Forever
ISBN 0-9722385-9-X
Different Roads
ISBN 0-9722385-3-0
Authors Ink Books
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com
Read the first chapters: http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
Waste time on Joyce's Blog: http://joycescarbrough.blogspot.com
Watch the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztz5e3XZeo |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1874
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 01:17 pm: | |
Finally my genius mind is recognized...  |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2062
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 05:43 pm: | |
Yes, Harry, I realize that they are two distinct forms of energy. The only reason I posted the thermonuclear bomb material was that your best buddy, Bill Nelson, mentioned the hydrogen bomb in an earlier post and I thought I might be able to get away with a shameless plug for Chasing Loose Nukes by Colonel Derek Duke, published by Dungan Books. However, now that you have taken a shot at me, I am going down in [hydrogen] flames.
http://www.fdungan.com/duke.htm |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1875
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 03:03 am: | |
Don't worry Fred, hydrogen flames are invisible, still I will come to your rescue with a big bucket of water. (I did extract the Hydrogen first...)
And I gave you another opportunity to plug the book Chasing Loose Nukes by Derek Duke. |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2938
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 12:17 pm: | |
"...beg to disagree. Gasoline itself is not flammable. It's the vapors that catch fire and make it explode. Thus, a full tank of gasoline is less likely to explode than a tank that is 30 percent full."
Fred, not to belabor this ad nauseum but consider this. When is a tank full? Only at the time it is filled, after that it has some degree of vapors. We have millions of cars running around with half-empty tanks, making moving bombs all over our highways and roads.
In the Air Force the first thing we did after flying was top off the tanks and ground the aircraft for the reason you describe.
We are so accustomed to our autos that we overlook the dangers of gasoline. The act of filling up our car is a dangerous event in itself.
Some engineer weigh in on this. What if we installed a propeller on top of the car connected to a generator. Could it generate enough electric power to keep the car moving?
 |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2493
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 03:27 am: | |
For a number of years I used Methanol (wood alcohol) as a racing fuel. It is quite similar in chemical properties to Ethanol.
It burned with an invisible flame BECAUSE it converted such a high percentage of the fuel into energy and that is the key to a clean burning fuel. It was evident when the engine was disassembled and the internal parts looked as if they'd been polished; no carbon deposits.
As far as engine modifications, all that is required to burn alcohol is an adjustment in fuel flow, high energy ignition, and a slight ignition timing change.
The downside of Methanol was that it has a much higher flash or ignition point than gasoline and is much harder to ignite. Another, and possibly more important disadvantage was that it takes almost twice as much fuel to get the same mileage as gasoline. It would have to be reeeeeeel cheap to compete price-wise.
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com
http://theunrealmccoy.blogspot.com |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1876
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 09:46 am: | |
Perhaps you could mount a sail on your car Bill? But personally I don't think that direct wind power will get very far on a car. Use wind power to produce hydrogen would be great.
But check out the World Solar Challenge in Australia, those cars run on pure solar power. It would not be 100% suited for normal cars, but a few solar panels could support a hydrogen car so you could save on hydrogen on sunny days.
Dennis, methanol would be fine if it would not compete with food. You will need to grow something organic to produce methanol, and you can't grow something to eat then: rising food prices. |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2494
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 02:34 pm: | |
Harry Do you know what a "soil bank" is?
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com
http://theunrealmccoy.blogspot.com |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2063
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 07:51 pm: | |
Isn't a soil bank where farmers get subsidy money by not planting crops? With hunger and malnutrition spreading and prices sky high, I don't imagine that the agricultural conglomerates will be collecting many subsidies from the American taxpayer in the near future. Of course, I could be wrong. The oil industry made $123 billion in profits last year and the last time I heard the oil companies were still being subsidized. Why not lobby Congress to establish subsidies for writers? That way, the less we wrote, the more we would be paid. Pretty soon we would be rubbing elbows with the shieks in Abu Dhabi and hanging out at the French Riviera. That's the life we were meant to live. Why work for a living? That's not the way to make money. Since this is the age of crony capitalism, we need to learn to schmooze.
http://www.dunganbooks.com |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2940
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 10:01 pm: | |
Why don't we just ration gasoline?
Sure everyone would scream, but they are already.
If we would impose rationing for six months, I'll bet prices would drop by half.
When someone is sick, you give them medicine to make them well don't you? |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2495
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 04:13 am: | |
I think I like Fred's idea best. As a matter of fact, it kinda makes sense. I'm writing now but I'm not getting paid. Perhaps...
Most of the unused tillable land in the world is in the United States. It's an incredible amount of acreage. Biofuels are not so much competitng for growing space as they are for seed. The corn that is grown to produce ethanol is a different hybrid than the stuff you put on your table or the kind that is grown for livestock feed. The seed farms are currently the bottleneck. Last year, they produced so much seed for biofuel products that they were unable to meet demands for regular agriculture. The insiders are waiting to see just how well Ethanol catches on before they invest millions to increase seed production. I guess that they can predict population growth and make necessary adjustments but they don't want to get caught in a "fad."
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com
http://theunrealmccoy.blogspot.com |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
4516
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 07:56 pm: | |
Ethanol makes no sense to me since they use petroleum products to process it and it's also mixed with a petroleum product. As far as my pea brain can figure it out, that defeats the purpose of biofuel alternatives.
Listen to the big oil companies and politicians invested or in bed with big oil scream bloody murder if anyone even mentions rationing gasoline. We already have self-imposed gasoline rationing because the prices are so flaming high we can barely afford to fill our vehicle regularly and I know we're not alone.
As for being paid for "idle acres" -- I'm the literary equivalent of idle acres now. Now that I've left retirement to work again, I don't have enough mind left to write so Fred's idea appeals to me.
Laurel Johnson
http://laureljohnsonblogs.blogspot.com
|
Frank Mazur
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
319
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 05:01 am: | |
As an aside, you could say there's quite a number of people who should be paid not to write. (Or perhaps it would be better to pay publishers not to publish them!)
As another aside, I think maybe Bill, Harry, Fred, and one or two others with their discussion of hydrogen, bombs, and other material with menacing potential, will--thanks to the so-called Orwellian "Patriot" Act--now be considered possible terrorists. Watch what you say on the phones, people!
3-dollar gas. Writers' strike. Read a great book by F. E. Mazur.
SPINE
THE BUCKSELLER
"A BIGGER CASE" |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1877
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 01:05 pm: | |
Rationing would help indeed Laurel, but it can not always be done. Just like carpooling you will need the opportunity to do so.
I remember we had ‘car less Sundays’ in the past. No one allowed to drive the car on a Sunday unless you had a good reason. The kids had a great time playing on the high ways, but grandparents stayed alone on the Sundays.
We pay about € 1.50/liter by now ($8.50 for a gallon). Luckely distances are not comparable to the USA, I can drive about two weeks on a full tank (40 liter for $93.) And my wife and I drive small Japanese cars that don’t use too much. But it is definitly insane: it costs me $9 just to get to work and back. I would like to go to work by bicycle but the road towards work is rather hectic during rush hour. I used to go by moped but since I got hit by a car I rather go by car myself and take the highway.
Can you imagine the market for SUV’s and Hummers over here? Only the filthy rich or the stupid buy them. (Not only the gas prices, but imagine maneuvering ancient narrow city streets with those things, and parking on the average tiny European parking lots. And we have no off-road tracks.)
Oil has got us all by the balls, it is high time to free ourselves from it. |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1878
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 01:07 pm: | |
Frank:
"I think maybe Bill, Harry, Fred, and one or two others with their discussion of hydrogen, bombs, and other material with menacing potential, will--thanks to the so-called Orwellian "Patriot" Act--now be considered possible terrorists."
Hehe! We can all continue this discussion in Guantanamo... |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2941
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 01:47 pm: | |
Harry,
You and Frank will be the first ones water boarded.
I'm going to get a job as a trustee!
You are certainly correct about oil having us by the cojones and not just the price at the pump. It's manifest in higher grocery prices, air-travel, and on and on. We the people (read voters) have got to get our incompetent politicians off that their fat duffs and do something really constructive.
We're sliding downhill on a greased rail. |
Nancy Marie
Unity Member
Post Number:
2055
Registered: 08-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 07:22 pm: | |
Somebody wrote that Southern California was going to go up in flames.
They're wrong. All of California is going to fall into the ocean.
I've been predicting that for years, and it's only a matter of time.
God's peace, Nancy |
Nancy Marie
Unity Member
Post Number:
2056
Registered: 08-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 07:25 pm: | |
oops that should be: God's peace, Kitty - so as not to confuse anyone with the other Nancy - oops I think I am getting myself confused. Too many meds, that's what it is.
God's peace, Kitty |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1880
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 12:23 am: | |
Good to see you back Nancy/Kitty!
You mean that hydrogen will not be the future fuel? |
Frank Mazur
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
320
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 04:06 am: | |
Hi Nancy. How's the horse? Nice to see to you pay a visit.
3-dollar gas. Writers' strike. Read a great book by F. E. Mazur.
SPINE
THE BUCKSELLER
"A BIGGER CASE" |
Frank Mazur
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
321
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 04:23 am: | |
I've had this picture of reversal in my head recently. You know how we've seen photos on the TV showing gridlock in New York and on the thruways around Los Angeles. Thousands of cars bumper to bumper with irritated and angry motorists just sitting inside, waiting to move. So many of those motorists, too, are overweight and out-of-shape. At the same time another image pops into my head that has been on TV. Thousands of Chinese riding their bicycles on the streets of Beijing. They all look trim and energetic. Lately I've been thinking that, relevant to oil, the switch is on. The Chinese are exploding industrially and their citizens are gaining wealth and wanting the cars and the freedom that goes along with four wheels and a motor. We, on the other hand, are finding it more and more difficult to pay the higher prices of gasoline and diesel and are beginning to revert to the bicycle. In some ways, I want to say 'Oh-oh!" In another I think maybe it will do us good.
4-dollar gas? Stay home, kick back, and read a great book by F. E. Mazur.
SPINE
THE BUCKSELLER
"A BIGGER CASE" |
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