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Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2969
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 10:51 am: |   |
"But what I want to know is what really is going on."
That is beyond your human capacity.
Like it or not, faith comes into play.
A naturalist says, "In the beginning, the big bang...." The cause of that event is beyond knowing, so it must be a given. If we are to understand anything, there must be a point to start.
The supernaturalist says, "In the beginning God created..." In either case we are probably talking about the same thing.
Understand what you can and don't beat your head on the wall about what you cannot. You are trying to understand an infinite intelligence with a finite mind that has limits, trying to be the first human being that has ever existed that really knows what's going on. You (as a human being) are simply not smart enough. |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2092
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 11:10 pm: | |
Over the years, one falls from oneself. The abstract side of the things that we have experienced vanishes. The motley collage of experiences has a spiritual dimension. As we grow older, we are less likely to notice it and, as a result, less likely to reflect on it. Those who land up in this spiritual no man's land cannot take refuge in or derive comfort from the same hopes and fears that their fathers relied upon. Those who have faith are happy with their spiritual props. They have no questions to ask and no metaphysical disputes to settle. There are people who understand in the heart and they are blessed. They are blessed because they are not pestered by questions. There are multitudes of social questions without solutions. Even a society bereft of exploitation and inequality is not perfect. Security and well-being do not necessarily guarantee a full and robust life for the individual. And fullness to the point of satiation is a disaster in itself.
We cannot see an electron. Yet I believe that electrons exist. I cannot see magnetic attraction. But I have no doubt that magnetism exists. At some point observation and experimentation come to an end. At that point faith takes over. It is up to you where to draw the line. Those who keep going get nowhere. When you come up against a wall which logic cannot penetrate, only faith can get you through it. You must believe to make it real.
Passion is like a fully charged battery. Sparks fly and what seemed impossible gets accomplished. Have faith, Harry. Otherwise logic becomes an endless loop with no way out.
http://www.fdungan.com/such.htm |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1936
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 12:56 am: | |
What I mean is that you need to start with logic to determine which philosophy describes the world more accurate than than rest. Surely there will be holes and contradictions in any philosophy, even a scientific one. For filling the holes I don't mind a bit of faith if there is a sound logical foundation first.
But to start off right away with a leap of faith and end up in the right philosophy would take quite a bit of luck. And if that right philosophy does not exist yet, your chances are nil. Logic might have brought you there.
Where would science be today if we never had looked beyond that leap of faith and the 'God did it' situation.
Lightning used to be a God, and there was nothing there could be done to keep yourself safe from that angry God. When man realized it was electricity, they could design a device that COULD keep them safe based on knowledge about electricity. No matter that the very basics of electricity might still not be completely understood and perhaps never will.
Sure there will be questions that are beyond human capacity to ever understand them. But what is the use of answering those questions with 'God?'
Just leave a question mark; 'to be determined,' or 'we don't know yet.'
If you fill in 'God' right away there is no need to look for an answer.
I think it is best to keep on using logic until you hit that limit of understanding, not way before.
You can not see an electron, but you can measure its existence and you can predict its behavior by a model. You can measure magnetic forces and their behavior fits in a model we can work with.
What does the 'God model' of reality brings us to work with? The 'God model' raises numerous questions that all take a huge leap of faith.
Why did God made the Bible illogical and cruel? Just believe that God is love.
Why is the Bible inconsisted with what we see and find in nature by using scientific methods? God confuses those who are not pure at heart.
Why do humans have gill tissue in their necks, useless monkey tendons and many other traces of evolution while they have been created? See above. It is part of a Divine plan we can't understand.
Why does God allow the innocent to suffer? We can't understand this with our feeble minds. Just believe that God is love.
And many, many more. They all take huge leaps of faith.
The scientific model of our existence is not flawless, but it surely makes much more sense to me than God, and does not require that many leaps of faith. I'm very comfortable with it, just like you are comfortable with a God.
I'm not 'pestered' by questions at all. The world is amazing; there is so much to learn I would like to live forever to learn it all.
Faith takes you to one place, and faith will keep you there.
Logic takes you to one place, but then logic will take you to another.
I think it is time for humanity to learn how to build a lightning rod. |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2970
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 03:43 pm: | |
"When man realized it was electricity..."
There you go! God is electricity, or at least a manifestation of God.
Good work, Harry.
There is hope for you yet.
 |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2093
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 05:16 pm: | |
In the New Testament God is love. He truly cares about us and wants us to do better. So, what's the problem, Harry. Are you stuck in the Old Testament? It's time to move on. The Bible isn't to blame for your repudiation of Christianity and Western tradition. Considering Holland's excessively liberal, permissive values - as contrasted with America's conservative values - it is not surprising that you and God have had a falling out. After all, you cannot help but be a product of your culture.
Until the 1960's, God was very much a part of our public schools. The Supreme Court forbid prayer and the public schools are the worse for it. Decadence and undisciplined behavior is what we got when they threw out God, the work ethic, and the entire spectrum of Judeo-Christian tradition. Students are not equipped to deal with drugs, casual sex, and violence. I would rather have young people exposed to prayer than to have them exposed to perversion. Nor am I alone in thinking this way. Both candidates for the presidency have vowed to increase the influence of faith-based services in the community. I live across a parking lot from Genesis Project, a shelter for abused and battered women, which is maintained by Lutheran Social Services in conjunction with the federal, state, and county governments. They do a good job and are not burdened with the bureaucracy and impersonal treatment of socialism. It is much to be preferred over the welfare program that preceded it. In other words, God works miracles where socialism failed. I see it happen with my own eyes on a daily basis. Since pragmatism is the best way to judge an issue, my faith in God is both logical and justified.
http://www.fdungan.com/sent.htm |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1938
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 09:05 am: | |
Bill:
“There you go! God is electricity, or at least a manifestation of God.”
That’s nice Bill. Now what can I do with that information? Calculate how much current will flow through a resistor at a given voltage? |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1939
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 09:10 am: | |
Fred:
“In the New Testament God is love.”
If God is love, then why do religious people all over the world kill in the name of God? Are they not religious after all? Is God’s word not clear enough? How should I translate that into the by God desired behavior?
“Are you stuck in the Old Testament? It's time to move on.”
The Old Testament is still considered the Word of God, like it or not. Most religious people are quick to skip it for good reason. But I did move on Fred. Science makes far more sense; I first look for answers there and most often I find them while God only provides me with more questions.
“Considering Holland's excessively liberal, permissive values - as contrasted with America's conservative values - it is not surprising that you and God have had a falling out.”
I was raised religious. I attended mass on Sundays for years until I started to think about it when I was about 14. Perhaps it’s the trauma I suffered when I learned at the age of 6 that Sinterklaas (sort of a Santa) did not really exist? I was really pissed at my parents that they had told me such a fairy tale as the truth. “Now what else did they tell me that might not be true?”
“Until the 1960's, God was very much a part of our public schools. The Supreme Court forbid prayer and the public schools are the worse for it.”
I doubt it very much if skipping prayer will corrupt youth. Many kids have no idea what it means they are praying anyway, they just drone the words. I worry more about the rise of ‘creationism’ in state schools at a time when we humans need to solve some serious problems and need all the scientists we can get. It sets the clock of knowledge back several centuries and will harm a nation’s scientific progress. Religion belongs in the homes of families or Sunday schools, but definitely not in the public schools of a free nation.
“Decadence and undisciplined behavior is what we got when they threw out God, the work ethic, and the entire spectrum of Judeo-Christian tradition. Students are not equipped to deal with drugs, casual sex, and violence.”
That is when you throw out discipline and work ethics together with religion perhaps. Many European states are far less religious than the USA, still do not show more casual sex, violence, drug problems or bad work ethics. Often even less!
For example; the percentage of drug users in the ‘war on drugs’ USA is twice as high as in the permissive Netherlands. Here youth gives it a try in a relatively safe environment; they do not fall out of society as society does not push them out or in jail. And when they get older they find a job and that’s it. An experience richer and no damage done. In the USA they even lock you up for some soft drugs. Did it solve your drug problem?
You have the highest incarceration rate in the world! This without the lower crime rates you would expect if incarceration would be effective; meaning that in spite of the high incarceration rate you still have as many crooks roaming the streets.
Young girls here are less likely to get pregnant than in the USA while we do have a more relaxed attitude towards sex and the human body. And instead of abstinence we teach them to protect themselves by using condoms.
“Both candidates for the presidency have vowed to increase the influence of faith-based services in the community.”
Sure many religious organizations do good work for the poor and abused. It shows they are good people, but that says nothing about the truth of their religion. But a state should not shy away from responsibilities and leave such care to coincidence. For example: how would a faith based service help homosexuals in need? Based on the Old Testament or the New Testament? Where should atheists in need go? And Hindus? Buddhists? Faith bases services introduce risks for some groups.
I’m for freedom OF religion, but also for freedom FROM religion. A true free state strictly separates religion and state. Justice for all and not only for those of the right religion. If a state prefers one religion, citizens who have different believes will be lesser citizens, and eventual even lesser humans.
I don’t believe that the tribal desert people who wrote the Bible millennia ago (and during millennia) can solve our problems today. What does it have to show in all this time?
The Bible can be easily interpreted any way you like: it has been used as a tool for the Holy wars, as a tool for the inquisition, as a tool to justify slavery, it was even used by Hitler to ‘proof’ that the Jews deserved the Holocaust for crucifying Jesus, free love (sex) during the hippy era and today it is used to proof that homosexuals need ‘fixing,’ and young people should avoid sex before marriage.
A Word that confusing can’t be the Word of a true God. I therefore think it is the word of man. Just like all those other holy books around the world who claim divine inspiration.
Indeed, science does not know all the answers. Science made mistakes in the past and will make mistakes in the future. Scientists are humans too, hindered by ego and bias. But unlike the holy books it DOES correct itself over time so leaps of faith are not needed to iron out inconsistencies.
Evolution explains all those strange things that are found in our bodies like nonfunctional tendons, DNA code for a tail and much more. Religion needs Satan to explain that away, or some mysterious hidden function.
Science did expand our horizon and did come up with logical answers about our origin and the universe that are consistent along different fields of science. It did come up with solutions to feed populations, cure diseases, make life easier, safer and more pleasant.
And unfortunately it also came up with tools to destruct human beings more effectively.
But science even can provide answers concerning ethics. A few of the most important experiments teach us much about human nature.
Check out Stanly Millgram’s experiment and learn about obedience. Study Zimbardo and learn about the dangers of authority. Now these (American) scientists provided the world with very important, but unfortunately much undervalued data.
It clearly shows us our weaknesses so at least we have a chance to deal with that and do something about it.
Suppose there is a God, than He gave us a mind to think. Wouldn’t he be pissed off if we did not use that mind and simply believed what we were told to believe and stuck to that no matter what? |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2094
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 04:04 pm: | |
Harry, I think you have the wrong idea about faith-based initiatives. Although the shelter is owned and staffed by Lutheran Social Services, you don't have to be a Lutheran to use it. Lutheran Social Services signed a contract with the federal government to provide the services to everyone - regardless of religion, race, or sexual preference. Thus, the shelter is no longer run by a stuffy, pencil pushing administrator. Now it is staffed with people who care rather than regulation conscious time-serving functionaries. In other words, things actually get done and the rate of recidivism is remarkably low. The kids go to school, the fathers either pay child support or go to jail, and the mothers go through a 12 step rehab program to rid themselves of addictions and help them to become productive, responsible citizens. It works. My backyard is no longer littered with empty beer cans, my stucco fence no longer gets tagged, and peace and harmony has returned to the neighborhood. All this in the course of less than a year.
The same goes for my Veteran's Administration health and dental care. Loma Linda University - a private, Seventh Day Adventist medical and dental school - is contracted by the VA to provide most of the doctors and dentists that staff the VA's Loma Linda Medical Center. I spent 2 years in the VA hospital and never met a patient that was a Seventh Day Adventist.
True socialism - the brand that espouses atheism and state ownership - died when the Berlin Wall came down. What remains is the watered down version of socialism that is practiced in Western Europe. If it weren't for the Christian Democrats, it probably would have died there too.
The last Crusade took place 650 years ago. Your insistence that Christianity is warlike has no credence. Jihads still exist and the United States has greatly suffered from Islam's misguided beligerance towards infidels. You seem to have mistaken America's defensive posture for aggression. The only land we seek in foreign wars is for cemetaries where we can bury those who don't come home. For most of the 232 years of the United States of America's existence, we have been isolationist in nature. Our first president, George Washington, in his farewell address to the nation warned us not to become entangled in the affairs of Europe. Had we taken his speech to heart, we could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble. My son fought in Kosovo and Bosnia. Why doesn't Europe fight its own wars?
http://www.fdungan.com/sent.htm |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1941
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 09:19 am: | |
This has to be one of the most diverse threads ever…
“Lutheran Social Services signed a contract with the federal government to provide the services to everyone.”
Your government signs contracts with faith based services??? You would not mind if they signed a contract with a Muslim service to do the same job?
“True socialism - the brand that espouses atheism and state ownership - died when the Berlin Wall came down.”
That was communism, not socialism. Socialism is not a religion by the way; there are Christian socialists and atheist capitalists. Only Christian atheists and socialist capitalists don’t exist. Forcing people to become atheist is just as bad as forcing people to become Christian or Muslim or anything else. A truly free state does not endorse any conviction. A wise state endorses science and humanity.
“What remains is the watered down version of socialism that is practiced in Western Europe.”
And that works fine. The American Dream is much easier to live in ‘socialistic’ Denmark than it is in America itself. ‘Socialistic’ Finland has the lowest corruption in the world. Drug abuse is about 50% lower in Netherlands than it is in strict USA. Health care is much cheaper and still better nearly all over Europe. Etc…
“Your insistence that Christianity is warlike has no credence.”
I mainly claimed that the Bible could be interpreted any way you like, ranging from ‘put to death’ to ‘love each other.’ That kind of change in viewpoint is typical for human beings, but not for a true God. But indeed Christianity through the ages did not show much ‘love,’ as a result of the freedom of interpretation of the Bible.
“Jihads still exist and the United States has greatly suffered from Islam's misguided beligerance towards infidels.”
Imagine a world where the US has not invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, and does not significantly support Israel. There are no Palestinians in the Middle East. Your army is weak.
How would you feel if the Arab world decides Palestinians should live in Israel? Gradually the Palestinians would take most of Israel and force the Israelis into small patches of land, isolated from each other within Palestinian territory, all with substantial aid from Iran? To go from one small settlement to another, the Israelis would have to wait at checkpoints until the Palestinians find it in their heart to let them go to work, school or hospital. It is hard to find work for Israelis as they often show up late or not at all because of this. Sometimes the Israelis are made to crawl through the mud at checkpoints for no significant reason by young grinning Palestinian military who laugh and make fun at them. The young children watch how their fathers are humiliated. When they grow up they start attacking the Palestinians whenever they can for what they have done to their parents and their nation.
The United Islamic Nations under the leadership of Iran once liberated Italy from the Greeks, and now they secured several military bases in Italy. This pisses off some Italians as they want the Muslims out of their land. On Feb. the 2nd the Italian terrorists execute an attack in Iran, killing 3000 Iranian people.
Iran responses by invading Canada, as they say the leading Italian terrorist must be hiding there somewhere. The Italian terrorist is nowhere to be found though.
Not long after that, Iran accuses the USA of having weapons of mass destruction (you do own them, but in this little story you don’t. You do own an old stack of yellowcake though.) The Iranian leader refers to February 2nd, the USA and WMD’s in one sentence many times. Most Iranians believe that the USA has something to do with the Italian terrorist attack, or that Americans have committed the terrorist attack instead of Italians.
Iran invades the USA. There is lots of criticism on the Iranian attack on the USA. Many nations, also Muslim nations, claim it is unlawful. The American people start to demolish and plunder in the chaos. The only objects the Iranian army defends are the oil wells in Texas. The Iranians can’t find any WMD’s, only the already known stack of old yellowcake which isn’t even suitable for a dirty bomb. Iran now accuses the US government of abusing and killing Afro and Native Americans, claiming it is there to bring Sharia law to the US to put an end to injustice. The oil contracts the US had with Saudi Arabia and China are annulled. Iranian oil companies rush in and take over. They hang the US president in a show trial. Americans get pissed off with the behavior of the occupying Iranian army who rush full speed through rural towns killing many, bombing whole neighborhoods and such, and start to fight them. Republicans and Democrats also start to fight each-other in a struggle for power.
What would you feel and do in such a situation Fred?
So, for most Muslims it has little to do with infidels, although the excuse is used by some. Muslims are pissed off for many reasons. One of them is the gradual destruction of Palestine and its people. Look up how the map of Israel and Palestine changed over the years; there is hardly anything left of Palestine. The USA supports Israel massively with money and weapons, and all Muslims know this.
What irritates too is the connection of the USA with the Saudis, who are certainly not nicer than Saddam, (the Saudis are really good at stoning and such) and US presence in that to them holy land. I believe that this is Bin Laden’s main irritation. (Bin Laden is a Saudi.)
Then you have Afghanistan and Iraq and the threats to Iran. Muslims feel they are being wiped out and respond in despair, which leads them to fight dirty. It’s like a nest of bees; if you leave them alone they will not harm you, but if you start kicking the hive, they all come out and get you. And in a blind rage also sting people who did not kick, unfortunately.
Mainly Saudi fundamentalist Muslims killed 3000 innocent Americans. That was a hideous crime even most Muslims condemn. Even Iran condemned that act.
Christians and Jews have killed MILLIONS of innocent Muslims. Muslims occupy ZERO Christian nations; Christian/Jewish nations invaded and occupied THREE Muslim nations. If there is a ‘Jihad’ it is the Christian/Jewish one against Islam.
Who is at the wrong end of the stick you think? You are blaming the Muslims because hitting them gives you RSI.
And it isn’t even about religion, although many Christians/Jews/Muslims believe this is the case. It is simply ego, power and money again, like it has always been and always will be. Nobody fights over a nation where there is nothing to gain; at most they might put up a show for public relations.
“You seem to have mistaken America's defensive posture for aggression.”
Correct, except that I don’t think I’m mistaken, see above. You attacked a nation that did not harm or threaten you in any way. You are about to do that again. For money and power: control over the Middle East. Now I don’t think it has to do with American character, but simply with the fact that there is no one to stop you. Europe behaved the same once when it could, and so did the Romans.
“The only land we seek in foreign wars is for cemetaries where we can bury those who don't come home.”
If you hadn’t invaded Afghanistan and Iraq there would be no need for cemeteries. What happens there will haunt you for decades to come. It’s called ‘blowback.’
“Why doesn't Europe fight its own wars?”
I completely agree with that Fred. And Europe agrees too. Only the USA does not want a Europe with its own army for obvious reasons. It only wants European pawns to fight in US lead wars. The US military is stationed all over Europe, even in Schinnen, not that far from where I live, all under the flag of NATO, still mainly US. (I can listen to Rush Limbaugh on my car radio as the military have their own FM station here.)
Still that EU army is building up; slow as not to get in too much trouble with the US. But it is happening.
The European GPS Galileo is designed for an independent army. The US GPS can be shut down for all but the USA at any time. That is why Galileo is being built. Its frequencies are very close to the American GPS, so Galileo can’t be jammed by the US without jamming their own GPS. That should tell you something about the future.
I just hope that Europe will use such an army wisely, for aid, defense and not offence, and not let it be abused by big money.
Perhaps you should not ask “Why doesn't Europe fight its own wars?” but “Why does America fight the wars of a bunch of crooks like Big Oil and Halliburton/Blackwater?”
Are you really willing to die to fill their pockets?
Did you read about the experiments of Stanly Millgram and Zimbardo by the way? Much more interesting than all we already discussed so many times before… |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2973
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 02:58 pm: | |
"Imagine a world where the US has not invaded Afghanistan and Iraq,..."
Interesting thought.
Would you do me the favor of sharing what you would like to have seen when Iraq invaded Kuwait, an act of unprovoked aggression. And, yes, we had an interest in the oil fields.
What would you have done, Harry?
And, by the way, the scientist that you seem to worship have never ever (not once) invented anything! They have discovered clever ways to use what was (is) already here. Where did those things (electricty for one) come from? |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2095
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 08:10 pm: | |
When the Taliban ruled Afghanistan they chose to give asylum to Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda. After 9/11 occurred, President Bush demanded that the Taliban surrender Osama bin Laden. Mullah Omar repeatedly refused our overtures and finally we issued an ultimatum. As soon as the ultimatum expired we sent in forces to capture the leadership of the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. Our goal was to annihilate al-Qaeda. Unfortunately our forces were stretched too thin to do the job (we no longer have a draft). Thus Osama is still thumbing his nose at us and the Taliban is resurgent in Afghanistan. Both the Republican and Democratic candidates for president have expressed a desire to gradually withdraw US forces from Iraq and send them to finish the war in Afghanistan. Of course, the war would already be over if the Europeans had kept their troop commitments to NATO and supplied the necessary forces. Nor is this the first time that Europeans have wimped out. Keep in mind that we had to go it alone in Iraq because the Europeans voted against us at the UN.
Nor does our government discriminate against Muslims. Immediately following 9/11, our president delivered a speech in which he stated that Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda were to blame and that no U.S. Muslims had taken part in the hijackings and the attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon.
Europe talks a good game, but when it comes down to actually doing something, Europe frequently wimps out. How sad. We usually end up taking up your slack. What does it take to get Europeans motivated and moving? Don't give me that superior socialist bullshit. My son came home from Kosovo and Bosnia with stories about open graves piled high with the bodies of women and children who had been killed because of their religion. Where the hell was the progressive socialist European Union? It's in your backyard and we had to go over and do the job for you. Europe introduced the world to "the final solution" and "ethnic cleansing." I think we have had about enough of your two-faced doubletalk. Put up or shut up. Action speaks louder than words. I would much rather that our country make a mistake and learn by it than for us to simply sit on our hands and do nothing (as the Europeans are inclined to do).
You don't want our troops stationed in Holland? You certainly didn't object when we liberated Holland from the Nazis.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1944
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 09:11 am: | |
Bill:
“Would you do me the favor of sharing what you would like to have seen when Iraq invaded Kuwait, an act of unprovoked aggression.”
I wasn’t commenting on that war Bill. It was indeed an act of unprovoked aggression (greed again.) Just read my post again and you will understand it in the context.
“And, by the way, the scientist that you seem to worship have never ever (not once) invented anything! They have discovered clever ways to use what was (is) already here.”
Bill, you are not writing anything, only rearranging the letters that already exist?
“Where did those things (electricty for one) come from?”
At the lowest level? No idea Bill. Now you will say "God," and then I will ask: "what can we do with that knowledge?" |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1945
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 09:29 am: | |
Fred,
Europeans are no saints and I never claimed they were. They are exactly the same human beings as the Americans and the Iranians and all other folks on this planet.
The Afghan Taliban indeed provided a safe harbor for Osama, so the US invasion was justified when you forget a few things about the past: if Islamic fundamentalism was not stimulated by covert US operations in Afghanistan against the ‘atheist’ USSR, there would have been no need to look for people like Osama. Still it must be pretty clear that an invasion that takes years to find someone is meaningless: Osama was long gone, probably right before or not long after the invasion. In this case a covert operation would have offered a much better chance as that would not have scared him away. I think the main reason to stay or perhaps even to invade is getting Iran. Iran is now nicely surrounded, is that a coincidence?
Muslims see three occupied Islamic nations: perhaps they had some understanding for Afghanistan, but definitely not for Palestine and Iraq. And when Iran is added to the list the shit will definitely hit the fan. It might throw us all back several centuries.
Europe is reluctant to fight your wars for several reasons:
There is a struggle for power and oil going on. The USA depends on its army to keep control; Europe has no army so uses diplomacy and trade to get its way. That clashed in Iraq where Europe had oil deals and oil was sold in Euros, while the USA sought more control over the Middle East and wanted to protect their petrodollar. So America's struggle is not Europe's struggle, only the prize is.
Kosovo/Bosnia is another story: it indeed exposed Europe’s dependency on USA military and that stinks seriously. I agree that Europe should solve that kind of problems outside NATO. (I think NATO has no right anymore to exist anyway) I think Europe realized that and is doing something about it, and it is indeed about time.
“I would much rather that our country make a mistake and learn by it than for us to simply sit on our hands and do nothing (as the Europeans are inclined to do).”
What did the US learn over the back of a million dead Iraqi’s?
“You don't want our troops stationed in Holland?”
Correct. It’s about time I think. As we agree on; Europe should fend for itself.
“You certainly didn't object when we liberated Holland from the Nazis.”
We could even go further back to your war of independence where the Dutch fought at your site to free you from Britain, but is that still relevant you think? Let me put it this way: would fighting in your independence war back then make it all right to do whatever we want right now?
The only easily justifiable war is a defensive war.
Hitler invaded as he wanted to create a great empire for him to rule. It was correct for all nations to fight him. It was an easy war considered the ethics. Still the roots of this war stemmed already from WWI.
You can argue about humanitarian missions as they are much more complex. Should you just let people getting murdered in a nation far away that does not affect your own nation? I would say not.
But who decides what, and who can oversee the consequences? When should you interfere and when not? When is human intervention used as an excuse to achieve something completely different?
The USA is much in the spotlight simply because you have the most powerful army in the world and there is no conventional army that can stop it. Besides that a bunch of crooks are in control. The USA hits because it can, and Europe does not hit because it can’t. I don’t believe that there are deep profound differences in morality, only differences in situations.
I believe that many leaders all around the world tend to corruption; unfortunately this is a human trade. From there a little bit of propaganda does wonders: people tend to obey authority blindly certainly when there is some 'terrible threat.' It is a game played by many before us, and it will be played when we are long gone and forgotten. When nobody remembers what Europe or America was.
The game is not much fun to watch as millions of innocents die and a few get rich and powerful. What is worse is that some brave heroes give their life for it not knowing they are pawns in a sick game.
It hurts me to watch this game being played, and I realize I can't stop it. |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2097
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 08:44 pm: | |
Having been on both sides of a gun at various times, I can assure you that war is life and death - no games, no bullshit. To the troops on the ground it's kill or be killed with no room for philosophical discussion. That is why it is important to make sure that all possible diplomatic avenues have been exhausted before launching a war.
We did everything we could to get the Taliban to turn over Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants prior to invading Afghanistan. It is a just war. The sooner we purge the region of al-Qaeda, the better. I have no tears to shed for Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden.
Nor should wars be financed by double digit interest credit with the principal left to be paid by generations of taxpayers not yet born. Such precipitate action is irresponsible and is largely why the United States is wallowing in the depths of a prolonged depression. Printing money at the rate of $2 billion per day to pay for the war devalued our currency to the extent that purchasing power has steeply declined and will in all likelihood continue to decline. The Euro and the Canadian dollar are gaining ground on the U.S. dollar.
President Bush has it wrong, it is not that the nation is addicted to oil. Should it prove necessary, we have the ability to put our SUV's on blocks for the duration of the war, suspend or terminate the importation of oil from the Mideast, institute rationing, and continue to prosecute the war on terrorism. Rather it is that government is addicted to credit. Crony capitalism is all about easy money, windfall profits, lack of morality, and the decline of the American work ethic. The lesson learned from Vietnam is that we cannot afford guns and butter at the same time. The nation must pick one or the other. Anything less than whole-hearted support for a war will inevitably result in overly prolonged hostilities and more body bags than would otherwise be necessary.
Furthermore, Europeans should pay for their fare share of the war in Afghanistan and quit carping about it. With its discrimination against women in the name of Allah, its insistence on wearing beards and traditional garb, and its rejection of everything Western, the Taliban has very little by which to recommend itself. It's time for the Europeans to quit sitting on their hands and send us some help.
http://www.fdungan.com/son.htm |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1946
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 09:15 am: | |
“Having been on both sides of a gun at various times, I can assure you that war is life and death - no games, no bullshit.”
Sure war is life and death for the soldier, but for the crooks who start it, it’s is a game where soldiers are used as pawns. That is what I’m pissed off about. Perhaps it should be like in ancient times when the Kings lead their army in the fight at the front, instead from a comfortable chair in an air-conditioned office thousandths of miles away. It that case politicians would think twice before starting a war for profit or power and play with the life of young people.
“That is why it is important to make sure that all possible diplomatic avenues have been exhausted before launching a war.”
Completely agree. I might add that all intel should be thoroughly checked before setting off to war, and the long term consequences considered carefully.
“Nor should wars be financed by double digit interest credit with the principal left to be paid by generations of taxpayers not yet born.”
Completely agree. But in defensive wars you have no choice. If you start an offensive war on credit you are a crook with an agenda or insane (or both.)
“Rather it is that government is addicted to credit. Crony capitalism is all about easy money, windfall profits, lack of morality, (…)”
Completely agree again.
“Furthermore, Europeans should pay for their fare share of the war in Afghanistan and quit carping about it. With its discrimination against women in the name of Allah, its insistence on wearing beards and traditional garb, and its rejection of everything Western, the Taliban has very little by which to recommend itself.”
Who is the USA to decide how other people in the world should live? You can’t shove Western values down people’s throat at gunpoint; like stubborn children they will do exactly the opposite. If the West sets a good example the rest will follow. The West is not setting a good example at this moment.
At first I didn’t have too many problems with Afghanistan, but after Iraq I think it is part of a plan to get Iran too, as a method to gain control of the Middle East. Iran is nicely surrounded now. I think perhaps the situation in Afghanistan might put it on hold.
“Follow the money,” is often said. Check who is gaining by doing what.
PS: If anyone starts to insist on woman wearing beards than they should be wiped out immediately: that is simply too much even for me to tolerate… |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Wandering Member
Post Number:
175
Registered: 08-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 01:47 pm: | |
Harry,
I am personally HIGHLY OFFENDED by just about everything you have stated on this whole thread. I don't know about the others here, but you are becoming increasingly offensive to my moral and governmental beliefs and I truly resent everything you are saying, because it is NOT TRUE. YOU DO NOT HAVE EVERY SINGLE FACT and the ones you do have, you twist with everything you have at your hands to make it point your way. You really do NOT have a right to insult our country the way you continually do, you do not live here, you are not American, and you really have no idea of the reality of those things you hold as truths that you have read about and you so freely spout as lies and insults against everyone of us. By reading things you write, I am truly starting to understand the Liberal-Socialist mind and the completely insulting ways that it manipulates everything to its own benefit, and I quite frankly, can't stomach it anymore.....
I am totally through ever reading a post of yours again.
Goodbye, I am sorry to acknowledge that I have just today, lost a friend, or someone I thought of as a friend.
Claudia
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
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Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1948
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 08:30 am: | |
Claudia:
“I am totally through ever reading a post of yours again.”
I’m taking a chance that you will make one last exception by answering your post.
I’m sorry to hear that you have blown a fuse Claudia, but if you are this easily “HIGHLY OFFENDED” and still don’t know me by now, than I can live with the fact that you will never read my posts again.
I actually didn’t even know you were reading them? Did you really read my posts or did you read them like you have read that recent article about yellowcake?
Anyway; if you would have asked me I might have been able to clear a few things up for you, or at least attempted to do so.
Quite frankly I was under the impression that this thread had reached calm waters, but that might be me.
It should be easy to refute the nonsense, lies, twisted facts, and warped logic of just one single person who isn’t even speaking his native tongue, so why are you so angry instead?
I wish you could make a better distinction between friend and foe, but that’s you; loyal to the bitter end, no matter what. If one day you realize a few things you can always mail me, I bare no grudge. |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1949
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 08:31 am: | |
Fred,
I suppose it’s time to end this discussion, much to my regret. I enjoyed it though, thanks.
Good luck to you and your family, seriously. |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2098
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 05:49 pm: | |
Harry,
The Taliban wasn't elected. It was imposed upon the people of Afghanistan as has nearly every government that has ruled that country. Kindly recall that it was the Taliban that outlawed satellite TV, banned foreign films, gathered up people and made them go to the mosque, and beat those people who refused to cooperate into submission. It was a brutal regime. And the worst part about it was that it gave al-Qaeda and other anti-Western terrorist organizations a base from which to operate. The Taliban and al-Qaeda staged 9/11 and I have no tears to shed for their demise. If we had fought the Taliban and Osama sooner, the Twin Towers would still be standing, you wouldn't have to go through a two hour security check at the airport, and the soldiers who perished in the attack against the Pentagon would still be alive. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Hopefully we will be able to defuse the situation in Iran without invading. The IED's that are killing our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are being made in Iran (shaped charges cannot be improvised - they have to be manufactured as do the rockets that are being fired at Israel from Palestine). Iran supplies terrorists with money and arms. Our troops are going to have to go up against the Revolutionary Guard sooner or later. The longer we wait, the stronger they get. We didn't start the war with the terrorist organizations, but we will finish it, with or without Holland's help.
Unless we take care of this now, our children will have to wonder every time they go to a pizzaria or a sporting event whether someone is wearing a suicide belt. We either eradicate them at the source or we will have to fight them in our streets. They hate us and nothing you say or do is going to change the way that radical Muslims think. Quit hiding your head in the sand. It will do you no good to defend these people because they behave irrationally. In this effort Europeans have proved themselves to be slackers. If you don't want to help at least stand out of the way. Does a rocket have to come down through your roof before you will believe that terrorists constitute a threat to our way of life? Terrorists cannot be appeased. Our only option is to defeat them at the source.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Wandering Member
Post Number:
178
Registered: 08-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 07:27 pm: | |
Thank you Fred.....
Claudia
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
|
127 (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: cpe-76-189-142-142.neo.res.rr.com
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 03:56 am: | |
Give up arguing with Claudia and Fred, Harry. Fred's a mentally unbalanced dumbass and Claudia's a racist, no-talent, wannabe writer. Check her diss at Obama in the other thread. She doesn't mention him by name but via inuendo. She actually believes Bush is a good president and leader. How stupid can you get? People like Claudia and Fred (regardless of their age) should be made to do a tour of duty in Iraq. Then we'll see how much they love ignorant azz George Bush. |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Wandering Member
Post Number:
179
Registered: 08-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 09:54 am: | |
deleted by writer because after reading his scathing post on the other thread, he has been here before and is nothing but a troll. So I am not going to respond to him.
Claudia
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
|
127 (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: cpe-76-189-142-142.neo.res.rr.com
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 10:07 am: | |
Claudia, do you hang the confederate flag from your house too? Read her post people she believes all the untruths about Obama. This dildo brain thinks he's muslin. She also calls him a communist and stupid in the White House. You're not just against Obama. You come across as a lily white conservative who hates people of color specifically. How much experience did Reagan have to be the Govenor of California then the President of the United States? How about Arnold, Claudia? He's a republican, is he your kind of guy too? Zero experience I might add. And last I checked, John McClain doesn't have any experience in the White House either. Other than a president who was re-elected name me one who did have experience? You're an idiot for using experience as a criteria. Or racist in this case cause you surely didn't use it against Reagan, etc.
Claudia, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck!!! |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2101
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 06:06 pm: | |
I attempted to reenlist for Operation Desert Storm and the Army sent me to the Los Angeles MEPS for a physical. I stood around for hours in my underwear with a bunch of 18 year old inductees who referred to me as grandpa while the doctors poked and probed and technicians took samples of our blood and urine. They had us duck walk 10 steps up and take 10 steps in reverse. I slipped a little on the linoleum coming back, so they took a series of x-rays of my left ankle. They found nothing out of the ordinary, but suspected lots. Three hours later the physicians declared me unfit for military service due to my inability to stay balanced while duckwalking in reverse. Essentially you are right - I was officially declared unbalanced and had to sit out the war. As far as being a dumbass, I would rather be that than be a smartass like you.
Claudia formerly owned and edited an independent newspaper. Since racists don't survive for long in the southwest, I seriously doubt that you know what you are talking about. Being a Moderator, Claudia could have banned you from the board and deleted your posts.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm |
127 (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: cpe-76-189-142-142.neo.res.rr.com
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 06:24 pm: | |
You did yourself a favor by deleting your answer to my post, Claudia, cause it had IM A RACIST RIGHT WING CONFEDERATE LOVING FRUITCAKE written all over it. As for you Fred. I don't even attempt to converse with twistees like yourself. |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2104
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 07:09 pm: | |
Nor should you. As a PA shill, you must have far more important things to do. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm |
127 (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: cpe-76-189-142-142.neo.res.rr.com
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 07:32 pm: | |
You've been on one tour of duty too many Fred. They say the military make men out of boys, well you should sue whatever branch you were in cause it failed you. But digressing, since you like to soldier so much why don't you soldier of fortune in Argentina somewhere? How many guns do you have, Fred? An arsenal I bet. What are you preparing for? |
Joyce Scarbrough
Unity Member
Post Number:
1288
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 09:31 pm: | |
>>This dildo brain thinks he's muslin.<<
OMG, Claudia. I certainly hope you do NOT think Obama is a finely-woven cotton fabric introduced to Europe from the Middle East in the 17th century! Now, that's just hitting below the belt! 
~Joyce Sterling Scarbrough
True Blue Forever
ISBN 0-9722385-9-X
Different Roads
ISBN 0-9722385-3-0
Authors Ink Books
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com
Read the first chapters: http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
Waste time on Joyce's Blog: http://joycescarbrough.blogspot.com
Watch the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztz5e3XZeo |
Gloria Marlow
Unity Member
Post Number:
2087
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 10:04 pm: | |
You know, Mr. (or Ms.) 127, I have no idea why you decided today was a good day to come here and pick a fight, but I doubt it had anything to do with PA or their honor.
I find your attack on Fred's military career to be very offensive and uncalled for. I can't believe that such an intelligent person as yourself has to stoop to personal attacks against people who have done nothing to you.
If you're here to talk publishing, writing, etc., then by all means let's hear what you have to say on the subject. Although why you would want to share your opinion with a bunch of loser, wannabe writers is beyond me. It seems your knowledge and expertise would be much more valued among people who actually write and write well. Perhaps you should go to a real publisher or writer's website and share with them.
By the way, the majority of us are so over PA that your little rant on the other thread is laughable to say the least. PA is the past.
Gloria
www.geocities.com/gloriadmarlow
http://youtube.com/user/gloriamarlow
Flowers for Megan**Shades of Silence**The Butterfly Game
|
127 (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: cpe-76-189-142-142.neo.res.rr.com
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 10:47 pm: | |
Bullcrap Gloria.
As for Fred. Would you want him as a neighbor? The man's a ticking time bomb. He has an arsenal of weapons at his disposal and enough ammo to supply a small country at war. I don't know the man personally but you can tell by his posts that all his i's and t's aren't crossed. Bricks are missing in his foundation.
I noticed you made no comment about what I said about Claudia cause you know I was right on. I can spot 'em and I nailed that one, called her out. The post she deleted revealed her true colors in more ways than one. Scary. George Bush, and I suspect, David Duke are her heroes. Scary, scary, scary. |
Gloria Marlow
Unity Member
Post Number:
2088
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 11:45 pm: | |
Well, you are wrong on the reasons I didn't comment on what you said about Claudia. I wasn't as offended by what you said about her because you didn't take something she is proud of and throw it in her face. Fred has right and reason to be proud of his military service and the fact that you would attack that is offensive to me.
I don't understand why you want to attack anyone here in such a personal way as you have now attacked both Claudia and Fred. What have they done to you?
I suspect that your "Bullcrap Gloria." comment is directed at my last statement that PA is in the past and no longer matters to most of us. I can't say that is true for everyone, but I can swear it is true for me. I don't dwell on my experience with PA. Everything in life happens for a reason. It's been seven years since my book was published by PA and I certainly hope and believe that my writing has improved in that time. I've learned a lot since then. I don't really know what would have happened to my dreams of writing if I hadn't gone with PA, but I know that as disagreeable as I may have found it, it was a stepping stone. Maybe not one I would have chosen to use in hindsight, but certainly one that helped me get to the point I'm at now as a writer.
Gloria
www.geocities.com/gloriadmarlow
http://youtube.com/user/gloriamarlow
Flowers for Megan**Shades of Silence**The Butterfly Game
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Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2105
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 12:12 am: | |
Sorry, the largest caliber weapon in my possession is a .22 carbine used for varmints. And I possess 1.5 boxes of .22 caliber ammunition - no hollow points, no cop-killers. Long ago I discovered that my writings could influence vast numbers of people whereas anything else I could do would only affect my immediate surroundings.
I live next door to an all girl rock band on one side and a shelter for abused women on the other. Arlington is an older inner city neighborhood where most people know each other. Since I write for an overseas market, few know what I do for a living.
I agree that the Publish America issue is very much alive. Bushwhacked is still under contract and the terms of that contract have yet to be met. I have been extremely patient. Publish America continues to stonewall and appears to have no intention of negotiating in good faith. Their use of thugs packing heat at the convention several years ago demonstrates how far Meiners and PA is prepared to go to ride herd on authors. The matter has escalated from a civil dispute into criminal activity. Meiners belongs in prison and I intend to put him there.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm |
Joyce Scarbrough
Unity Member
Post Number:
1289
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 01:13 pm: | |
Fred, the house across the street from me is for sale right now. Want me to send you a flyer?
~Joyce Sterling Scarbrough
True Blue Forever
ISBN 0-9722385-9-X
Different Roads
ISBN 0-9722385-3-0
Authors Ink Books
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com
Read the first chapters: http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
Waste time on Joyce's Blog: http://joycescarbrough.blogspot.com
Watch the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztz5e3XZeo |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2107
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 01:16 am: | |
I could think of no one who I would rather have for a neighbor. But I doubt that either of us would get much work done.
http://www.fdungan.com/sent.htm |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2981
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 12:11 pm: | |
WHAT? You'd rather have her for a neighbor than me?
Are you out of your mind?
I can't believe my eyes, Fred.
I just...I'm...I can't...
 |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Wandering Member
Post Number:
183
Registered: 08-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 12:28 pm: | |
aw, Bill, now don't get you feelings hurt, I would have you fo a neighbor in a heartbeat, and I am much better looking than Fred.... think long blonde hair and green eyes and legs that are still long and shapely, ..... and... boobs!!! Not facial hair. And with your "red neck" attitude (that matches mine so well), you and I would get along perfectly, and there a house that is for sale just one house away from me, on the corner. But, bu.... you have just recently moved and already set up your house in that new location, so very sorry about that, I am.....
Claudia
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
|
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Wandering Member
Post Number:
184
Registered: 08-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 12:30 pm: | |
aw, Bill, now don't get you feelings hurt, I would have you fo a neighbor in a heartbeat, and I am much better looking than Fred.... think long blonde hair and green eyes and legs that are still long and shapely, ..... and... boobs!!! Not facial hair. And with your "red neck" attitude (that matches mine so well), you and I would get along perfectly, and there a house that is for sale just one house away from me, on the corner. But, bu.... you have just recently moved and already set up your house in that new location, so very sorry about that, I am.....
Claudia
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR
|
Joyce Scarbrough
Unity Member
Post Number:
1291
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2008 - 02:12 pm: | |
Thanks, Fred. I needed that after not even warranting an insult from Mr. 127, despite my pithy troll response and muslin mocking! Gee, what's a girl gotta do?
Bill, don't make me come over there. Gas costs too damn much!
~Joyce Sterling Scarbrough
True Blue Forever
ISBN 0-9722385-9-X
Different Roads
ISBN 0-9722385-3-0
Authors Ink Books
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com
Read the first chapters: http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
Waste time on Joyce's Blog: http://joycescarbrough.blogspot.com
Watch the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztz5e3XZeo |
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