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Tony Ford (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 24.31.214.250
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 12:24 pm: |   |
I recently received a critique on my manuscript. It was not good and I did not pay for the critque.
The editor of a small press was unimpressed with anything I had done, citing such things as "hugely lacking descriptive prose, skipping quickly over awe-demanding scenes, and failing to give the main character personality."
He also recommended adding 40,000 words to the book with "rich descriptions, and the emotions, fears, doubts and triumphs of the main character."
He advised a complete re-write.
Adding to the word count would put it over 126,000 range. I was happy with its length as being a quick easy read.
Has anyone else received such a response? Did you do as requested or simply move on, discounting them as only person's opinion?
Regards,
Tony |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2313
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 01:27 pm: | |
I've only received two critiques from people other than those who post here.
One was from an agent who said my book was not acceptable because I did not "show" her the main character.
The other was from a publisher who said she wanted to publish my book because I did a wonderful job of showing her the characters and situations.
Who knows. The truth may lie somewhere in between. Personally, I will not add or remove sections of a book on anyone else's say so. I write what I feel is best for the book and stop when it says what I want the book to say. Others here feel different, but that is how I work.
Without reading your manuscript it is hard to judge, but if any publisher or agent tells me to add or remove large blocks of text, I will mark them off my list. |
Sharon D. Martin
Wandering Member
Post Number:
134
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 02:12 pm: | |
Hi Tony,
An agent once told me to rewrite my book using flashbacks. It took me all of two minutes to decide not to. If she could have put money in the bank for me it would have took me less than two minutes to say yes. The fact was that if I rewrote it the way she thought it should be, there would be no promise of a sale.
Sharon |
Marshall S Thomas
Awareness Member
Post Number:
11
Registered: 07-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 04:13 pm: | |
Hi Tony,
Wow, that's a surprise. I can tell you I've never met an editor who said "make it longer." Usually they want it shorter. Maybe I'm not the right person to answer this because my problem is that I tend to make things too long, and too detailed, and too flowery with too much description. I can also tell you that most of the editors I've met don't like that.
I've learned that shorter is generally better, and short, simple sentences are more powerful than convoluted sentences with lots of adjectives and descriptions. On the other hand, I haven't seen what you've written, and it is important to make sure the readers get a clear picture of your main character.
In all cases I'd advise you to get several opinions and think hard about what the people critiquing your work are saying, before you make any major changes. It's very important to be open to valid criticism, as that will help you grow as a writer -- but you've also got to make your own judgment about how valid the criticism is. You sure don't want to add 40,000 words and send it off and have a potential publisher say "It's too long, cut about 40,000 words and we'll look at it again."
Regards, Marshall |
Tony Ford (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 24.31.214.250
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 04:39 pm: | |
Well, I doubt I could add 40,000 words, even if I wanted. Currently, my manuscript is 86,779 words and falls between most fiction guidelines I've come across.
Very few people have read my "book." I've talked my brother into reading it, but that's about it.
I did have a critique on the first chapter over at Critters. Other than saying the first chapter was too short ( only five pages ) they liked what it actually had to say and how it was said.
Regards, |
Todd Hunter
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
747
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 06:19 pm: | |
I don't think there's anything wrong with a short first chapter, as long as you hook the reader...sometimes shorter can be better...
but that's just my take on it...
Everyone has an opinion...it's our jobs to figure out which ones to listen to and which ones to toss back in the lake... |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wandering Member
Post Number:
250
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 06:42 pm: | |
I just had a 93500 word fantasy novel line edited. After I added in these suggestions, it climbed to 98k. I just had an editor revise this manuscript again (after another party critqued it for free) and it sits at 92750...so go figure... |
LaurieAnne
Unity Member
Post Number:
1043
Registered: 12-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 07:45 pm: | |
Tony,
The addage "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" holds as true for editors and readers as it does for the Miss America contestants. I had a manuscript professionally edited, and when I was finished, the editor informed me that there was absolutely no reason why I couldn't have it sold in less than 6 months. (insert sarcastic laugh here) This same "completed" manuscript was critiqued in a crit group, where I was told that my entire first chapter (34 pages) ended where the entire BOOK should have begun. To correct this would require cutting at least 30 pages from the first chapter.
My own personal opinion of this manuscript? The only reason it is not in my fire pit right now is that it is the first manuscript I completed, and I have this obsession with keeping EVERYTHING I have ever written....at least, until I have rewritten it to the point of being "happy" with the new edition.
NEVER will you have a product that someone, somewhere will not criticize.
LA
LaurieAnne
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com |
pacwriter
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
927
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 09:51 pm: | |
When your manuscript crosses the right desk at the right time it will be the right length.
an editor I talked with this week said, "When you have done all that you can do and are as happy with it as you can be, then put it on the backburner two weeks then read it again. If you are still happy with it, submit it." |
Matt Dinniman
Hunger Member
Post Number:
72
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 01:48 am: | |
Everyone has a different opinion, so it's really hard to get a good feel based on just one review. Though some people do have better radar than others.
My behemoth of a book was 220,000 words when I finished it. I personally edited it down to about 150,000 or so, had it edited professionally (well, my wife edited it, and she's a professional editor.) and it went down to 145,000. Then after I sold it I went through a hardcore edit with the publisher, and it now sits at 158,000. What some people like, other people hate. That's just the way it is. I look at critiques more closely if there's a trend... If I have five critters tell me "This line sounds funny," then I know it DOES sound funny. But if 20 people review it, and only one person mentions it, and it seems okay to me, I usally ignore the crit. |
Jarocal
Awareness Member
Post Number:
6
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 11:19 pm: | |
I realize this is an old thread but I thought I'd chime my two cents in anyhow.
"I recently received a critique on my manuscript. It was not good and I did not pay for the critque.
The editor of a small press was unimpressed with anything I had done, citing such things as 'hugely lacking descriptive prose, skipping quickly over awe-demanding scenes, and failing to give the main character personality.'..."
Um, getting a critique back form a submission to a small press rather than just a general 'thank you for submitting but we are not interested at this time' would show that the editor thought that it actually had potential to become a story rather than totally unimpressed. They read manuscripts everyday, all day and for the editor to finish the whole thing and give a critique on it instead of moving on to the next manuscript on the pile shows that the editor didn't feel the way the poster thinks he felt.
"He also recommended adding 40,000 words to the book with "rich descriptions, and the emotions, fears, doubts and triumphs of the main character."
He advised a complete re-write."
Um, okay and the problem is where? Do the things he asks and send it back. NO one said you have to send the revised version to all the publishers you want to send it to, just to the one who said "this is what I think it needs" (who also happens to be the person who decides whether or not to tell his boss to buy the rights to your book. Do what he asks, it's only 40,000 words and he already told you what he wants the majority of the 40,000 words to be.
"Adding to the word count would put it over 126,000 range. I was happy with its length as being a quick easy read. "
You may have been happy with it as is (most author's are, but the person you want to give you money for what you wrote is saying "It's something that I may be able to accept (no gaurrantees) but I think I would prefer <fill>. So give it to him,do you think your readers aren't going to tear your work apart and say things like the editor is saying? Look at how literary works (especially popular ones with a devoted fan base) get tore apart down to their basics every day by average readers. How many times have you read a book, Thought it was a good book, but noticed something that was wrong with the structure, something that should be different. The editor is the person who's career it is to know what the majority of readers will and won't like. They will not always get it right, but they will get it wrong far less than they get it wrong. If you are writing the story to sell books then listen to what the person who's living is to buy the books from authors is saying.
That being said I would like to note that it applies in my opinion only as to the case where it is the editor from a publisher suggesting the changes. This would be different for an independant editor (which may or may not be the best course of action for each individual author). The one from the publisher, if taking the time to give you a critique, has most likely seen something in your writing that they like. They are giving you a list of what they want to see in a story they are willing to buy. If you want to sell stories then you have to listen to the customer (in this case the publisher). If you love your story exactly how it is and are unwilling to change it to sell it then you may find that it is collecting dust unsold on your desk for years and years.
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LaurieAnne
Unity Member
Post Number:
1472
Registered: 12-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 06:58 am: | |
Jarocal,
EXCELLENT points.
LA
LaurieAnne
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Mary Erickson
Awareness Member
Post Number:
15
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 07:44 am: | |
I entered a writing competition for a book manuscript, which included critiques. Unfortunately, I didn't win an award. The manuscript was critiqued by three different judges. One of them told me I shouldn't use so many flashbacks and that I needed to cut out much of the narrative in which I described my protagonist's thoughts. She kept adhering to the fact that first time writers do this and that. One of the other critiquers was impressed with the fact that I was evidently a professional writer. This is a manuscript about a young man's reaction to learning after his father's death that the man was not his real father. His actions subsequent to this can only be explained by his step-father's lifelong rejection of him, thus the descriptive narrative concerning his thought processes and the flashbacks. A model for going inside the protagonist's head was Wally Lamb's, I know This Much is True.
I haven't done much with the manuscript since, mostly because I haven't had the time. But I will get it out again one of these days and, hopefully, I'll be able to look at it with "new eyes."
Mary |
Bill Nelson
Wandering Member
Post Number:
171
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 08:02 am: | |
I had one that pointed out some things I needed to do to make it "saleable", got some lofty praise (in detail) and then ended by saying, "I like it, but I don't love it! Not for us."
Is there a lesson in that statement?
bn |
Joyce Scarbrough
Wandering Member
Post Number:
111
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 10:24 am: | |
Look at it this way, I'd much rather get detailed criticism than just "Sorry, this is not for us" or "I'm not the right person to represent your book."
I appreciate anyone taking the time to give me specifics, even if I don't agree with them.
Toyce
True Blue Forever
Read the first chapter at http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
See the hunk at http://www.southernbelleauthor.com/joycepersonalpage
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Todd Hunter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1569
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 05:24 pm: | |
Or "This book does not fit our needs at the present time."
I like specifics...some of the finest feedback I've received on Hero has been in specifics...whether it be good or bad news... |
Jarocal
Awareness Member
Post Number:
7
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 06:27 pm: | |
Specific responses are nice, but they are a time consuming thing for an editor at a publishing house to do. To give an accurate critique of the manuscript they are rejecting takes time away from working on the stack of submissions they still have yet to review. It also opens them up to responses from disgruntled writers who think that the editor is wrong. It is not hard to find on the internet where people report about an editor 'ripping my book apart and everyone else who has read it loves it as it is'. I have yet to see a response letter from an editor that is not filled with constructive criticism or the basic 'form' rejection letter. The sad part is that it is getting harder to find an editor at a publishing house that will take the time to actually do more than fill out the standard rejection letter because of backlash they receive from authors who feel affronted by the 'audacity of an editor messing with their work'. It is much simpler to give the nice general rejection and not end up with getting angry letters back or memos from people higher up who received an angry letter about 'the imcompetence of the editor who reviewed my manuscript'.
I think that more authors who do appreciate the candor of an editor who does take the time to fill out specific points about a manuscript rejection, should take the small amount of time to write a short note to the editor and politely thank them for the open and honest critique of the manuscript. Because they reject one manuscript of yours does not mean they will reject every one (you actually have a better chance of writing a manuscript that will be accepted when you have now basically grocery list of what the editor would like to see).
As for comments about a specific work to 'make it saleable', there would most certainly be a lesson in that, if you want to sell that type of a story to that publisher, the editor has just given you a basic list of what they are looking for. Write another story following the guidelines the editor at the publishing house sadi would be a saleable story. It is no assured thing that the manuscript will be accepted but it stands a better chance if you write a good story inside the scope of what the editor thinks is a story that his publisher can sell. They are not in their position becauise they like to squash the dreams of unpublished authors, they are in their position because they keep finding books amid the piles of submissions that sell well for their boss. If every book they picked sat on the shelf and cost their boss money then they would be out of a job. Their rejection does not mean your book won't sell, but their recommendation for acceptance means that it is sold as long as your aent and they can come to a contractual ag}reement. |
Trina Green
Hunger Member
Post Number:
61
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 08:32 am: | |
As one who all to often have received the general rejection letter, I think you should be pleased that the editor at least read the full manuscript and sent you his views. It's nice to know why your manuscript is not acceptable to him. I think we writers take criticism too personally. Yes it is in reference to your creation, but like all things, people have their likes and dislikes. As in any profession there is an ultimate boss to scrutinize work production. If you were a carpenter and the boss sent the product back for some changes, surely you wouldn't think twice about making the changes. Sure this is different in that you are the utimate boss of your story, but your objective is to sell the book. So like any product for sale, the customer, in this case the editor, determines how the product should read. |
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