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Message |
    
Kevin P. Grover
Unity Member
Post Number:
1175
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 08:00 am: |   |
My daughter can't seem to read enough. The other day she was in my office and started looking through our stock of released titles.
Frankly, I think the most important thing is to not talk to children as children. By that, I mean that if you speak to them as you would adults, then it seems as though they grow up with clearer and more profound speech. in speaking with other parents, some said that they never did the "coo and baby-talk" to their kids after a year old. Every one of those kids speaks as clear as an adult. The other kids have a sound quality that is "coo-ish" (I hope you know what I mean). Also, another observation is that the clearer-speaking kids were doing better in reading and had a more than cursory interest in reading...some of them (mine included) being avid readers of anything they can get their hands on.
www.winterwolfpublishing.com |
Waiting on account approval (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 209.74.47.244
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 04:41 pm: | |
Well Steve and Kevin, your children are already far ahead of the majority of American children.If politicians continue to try and rehash that idiotic 'NO child left behind' program it will not be long until you will have to either wenroll syour children in private school or home sschool them to see that they get at least a level of ability in Reading comprehension sufficient that they are able to read article out of a newspaper.When I was younger I never did have want for video games and such, they were provided to me but the amount of time I was allowed to spend with them was severely restricted. I spent no more than probably 1/2 hr a week playing a video game when I was young. During the times not alloted for playing the video games it was unhooked and not in my possession. Going to ask permission to get the video game, then hook it up, get to play it for 1/2 hr, then unhook it, then return it it to where it was held when i was not using it was just too much of a hassle and eventually I quit even bothering with the stupid game at all.Most parents do not want to be bothered with maintaining the discipline necessary of actually raising a child. That is the number one reason that our children are overweight and under educated.
Because most parents do not have the self-discipline to take an active role in their children's education our children suffer. If more parents did actually take an active role in maintaining an enviroment in their home where learning and exercise could take place then students would not be failing the standardized tests at the levels they do. Standardized testing is not perfect, but it is an easy indicator of whether little Johnny can actually read a chapter in a book well enough to understand and summarize it. Standardized tests show if little Suzy is smart enough to count to ten without using her finger and toes. Standardized tests can show potential learning disabilities at a young age allowing for more analysis as to whether little Jarocal needs me to take him to a specialized tutor for assistance in learning or needs me to give him a boot in the @$$ to remind him he is going to school for a reason other than hang out with friends and act cool. |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
3025
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 05:06 pm: | |
Don't throw any bombs at me for saying this. I'm old and crochety.
I think if our politicians really truly were sincere about the No Child Left Behind agenda.....they would not continuously cut support to schools across this country. In my area, schools and educators are the first ones cut in the state budget, and I assume that is because federal funding is cut first.
Politicians who cut support to education, yet never forget to vote themselves raises and increased benefits while sending zillions of dollars overseas to other countries, don't give a rat's ass about which child gets left behind.
That is my cynical outlook on politicians and education. |
Todd Hunter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1554
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 05:44 pm: | |
Politicians cut school funding because what else would they cut? Their salaries and benefits?
Sorry for the cynicism...
By the way......LEGOs rock!
Just had to say that... |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
798
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 07:08 pm: | |
My son is reading at 2nd grade level and he isn't in first grade yet. I suppose it helps that my wife is a teacher, but I read to him everyday and he reads to me...and tells me the thing he has made up as well...
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Waiting on account approval (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 205.238.243.163
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 08:44 pm: | |
LEGOS can be an effective tool in learning engineering skills as can Playdoh.;)
Cuts in education spending do hurt our children, but they do not affect the lowering of competency levels on the part of the tudents as much as the lack of parental participation and discipline in teaching our children good habits. Cut funding from schools does not crimp school budgets to the point that they can not teach children to comprehend reading on the third grade level. If the BUdgets have been cut that far the many school districts need to drop all of their afterschool sports activities period. Schools districts cry about a lack of funding and then waste money on consultant fees and implementing classes such as "filling out job aplications and writing resumes".
I am sorry but if the students learn the English language to a competent level, they will be able to read and understand an application well enough to fill it out. If students are required to read and explore the writing styles of the authors on most required reading lists they will learn enough about constructing ideas which flow that they will turn out well written resumes. It does not requirre the amount of funding that school districts claim to need to teach these fundamental parts of an education. If the budget is that tight I would rather see sports programs cut from school budgets than to see the burden passed on to the taxpayer. Removing the cost of liability Insurance for having a high school football team would be a large windfall on school budgets. That does not even include the amount of cost incurred for equipment, grounds maintenance, or transportation of the players to away games.
"But our kid's don't get enough exercise now!". The majority of student atheletes would continue to be the same students playing at the local park, backyard, sandlot, or basketball court. The student atheletes are kids that tend to be more active and have an interest in doing those sports whether they are playing for a school team or not. If a district is inadequately funded the first thing to be cut should be those programs. You do not see mention of that happening because the schools know that the can run a deficit and eventually the taxpayer will have to bail the school out one way or another.
If the Budget is too tight, start trimming down the size of the school board and disrtict administrative office staff. Pettition a voter referendum to cut the District superintendants pay by 25% every year that 10 of the entire student population fails to meet the standards set forth in national Tests. Actually you can petittion a voter referendum to fire the entire school board if the proper proceedures are followed. If you live in a small community where the school district is not that large find a way to get a referendum for vote in the appropriate manner to make the school board positions a completely uncompensated position including for expenses. That usually trims down the number of applicants trying to get on the board. Every one of the charters is set forth with proceedures whereby the community can by foollowing the proper proceedure overide the school board.
If your local board is elected, who did you vote for? Did you actually ask any of the candidates how they plan on running the district? Did you even vote?
There are so many easy things to point at where the someone else is to blame that we rarely look at what we can do to improve our childs education.
Jarocal |
Kevin P. Grover
Unity Member
Post Number:
1176
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 09:05 pm: | |
There are so many faults with the education system these days...and so many misconceptions.
The first misconception is that the Federal Government is responsible. Schools are, for the most part, funded by the State Government, not the Federal. Which is why a lot of states have pledged funding to schools through lotteries. However, where is this money going if the schools are running less and less? This is the reason why a lot of levys don't pass. People see the amounts earned by the lottery and cannot for the life of them figure out why the schools need even more money, after lotteries show earnings in the hundreds of millions.
One of the major problems that has attacked schools and education is that a large number (not all) of teachers simply don't care like they used to. My daughter has homework every night and it has become clear that what is covered in the homework is not taught distinctly in the schools. Now, I'm not talking about something obtuse. I'm talking basic mathematics. I'm talking money and counting. Of course, I believe that this is a direct result of the union intervention. Yes, I believe that teachers SHOULD be paid well for what they do. However, I also believe they should earn their pay be making it their point that the children learn. After all, isn't that what they're paid for?
Now, another problem is simply this: Parents. More and more parents are falling into the belief that it's the responsibility of the school to teach their children. This ideology is only half correct. Any child who is to learn and succeed, must have supplemental teaching done by the parents. If you look at successful children (Steve, it sounds as though yours is), they have the school education supplemented by the parents. In our case, Rhiannon has numerous books at her disposal, she has a microscope lab, she watches TLC, The Science Channel and Discovery with us, we hide nothing and talk about everything. Hell, this kid actually looks forward to seeing the evening news! We talk about the weather, bugs, planets and a lot of other things. Life and death is openly discussed. A humorous story ensued a few months back when another little girl at school mentioned that pyramids were only in Egypt. The teacher informed us that Rhiannon politely informed the other girl that there were also pyramids in Mexico and China.
I guess I believe that education has evolved beyond the realm of rationality. These days, there is so much emphasis on having kids learn this and that...that there is simply not enough time. Rhiannon is learning multiplication and fractions in first grade. I didn't learn that stuff until well into second grade for multiplication, and even later for fractions. I think the education system needs to slow things back down and take the time to teach kids and not try to pack their brain with so much stuff too fast. For goodness sake, let's stop treating our children like robots with an input port that we have to force everything into in the least amount of time. Let them be kids and the learning will come in time.
Ok...off the soapbox now. 
www.winterwolfpublishing.com |
Perry Comer
Unity Member
Post Number:
1368
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 09:59 pm: | |
To fix the public education system remove the academic administrative people whose theories NEVER work.
Take away the "drugs" those children with discipline problems are forced to swallow. Lock up the doctors whose only answer is more drugs.
Give the teachers the power to discipline and principals willing to support teacher discipline. FIRE ANY PRINCIPAL WHO COVERS HIS BUTT WITH, "IT'S THE TEACHER FAULT BECAUSE THE TEACHER LACKS CLASSROOM MANAGEMENT SKILLS!"
Do not allow parents to do kids homework. Do not allow parents on school property unless the teacher asks them to be present. All teachers be assigned unlisted phone numbers so parents can't call and complain. Remember that if the teacher is coerced into giving your child special treatment that teacher has less time to teach all the other children in the class.
Put all the special ed children, all the discplinary problem children into classes with similar children. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR TEACHERS TO TEACH WHEN 3/4 OF THEIR TIME IS DEVOTED TO THESE "SPECIAL" CHILDREN.
Take education out of the federal government hands and put in into the hands of state school boards and local school boards. Cultural diversity of our nation is too great to set a national standard!
As the husband of a teacher holding a master in education and national certification with twelve years teaching experience - I see edcuation in a different light. I see education from the perspective of a parent with two grown children. Been there - done that! My son learned the "new math" but the rest of the world does "old math" so at 25 he struggles.
The USA is the only country in the world sliding backwards when compared to other nations educational levels. My grandchildren will know how to win games on X-box but not be able to read and comphehend poetry.
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Jarocal
Awareness Member
Post Number:
1
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 10:38 pm: | |
Another fun thing to do is to fill out the request for all of the schools financial records [under the freedomn of Information act]. For every conference the superintendant went to, for every consultant brought into the school district request that an accountablility of exactly was was gained for $<insertproper dollar amount>. When the report is to be given and a quick generalization is given about the expenditure politely be recognized by the moderator of the meeting and POLITELY ask the person giving the report (Usually the superintendant who was at the conference)
"In your own words, Please tell me what you personally brought back from the experience that in your mind really stands out. What skills that you did not have before did you gain at the seminar, that you feel will help you educate my child?" At all times remain polite. Even when the guy is trying to blow off giving you a answer. After having a few answers blown off, request copies of the minutes for the meetings and take them to a local lawyer. Have him review the exchanges and see if it is worth bothering the local D.A. with. As state funds are being cut for the education systems all over the country more and more District attorney's are going after school districts and School administrators misappropriating funds designed to be educating our children. Several wasteful spenders in my state have recently started to being held accountable for completing their tasks in a fiscally responsible manner. Several have stepped down, some have been fired, and some are looking at spending some time in jail. The key is that there must be a foundaton for a case for the DA to bother looking into it. Simple accusations or even just a numbers sheet showing that a consultant makes $2500 dollars a day does not make for fiscal irresponsibility. A school board supervisor saying he attended a conference in Jamaica for $8,000 of the school budget and the best thing he can say he learned at the conference is that 'we need to treat each child individually' may get the DA to at least ask for an audit of the schools books.
(Message edited by jarocal on May 24, 2004) |
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1257
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 11:23 pm: | |
We just had three high schools built here in the towns of Reno and Sparks, close to me. They cost $40,000,000.00 (YES, that is MILLION) EACH!!! To me that is a travesty. A few years ago, the County school system hired an Administrator from southern Oregon at a pay of $289,000 plus perks per year. The county that hired him has a total population of less than 500,000 people and less than 60,000 students countywide. To me that kind of spending is totally out of line, for the size of county and number of students. For crying out LOUD, the f****ing PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES only makes $400,000 per year and he has one hell of a lot more going on than the Superintendent of Schools in Washoe County, Nevada. We just had our basketball team make the Sweet 16 in the national finals this year for the first time in oh, 20 years or so. When the team came back after the loss that put them out of the running, the coach of that team was asked to go to Utah for a meeting where they were offering him a position of Head BB Coach for Brigham Young, where he was the Assistant Coach before he came here. They were offering him $500,000 per year/ he opted to stay here IF our University would match that offer, THEY DID....... that was what, in March, and right now he is looking at Stanford for a coaching position. I say let him GO... YES it was nice that he got our team there, but that kind of salary in a small University is, again, totally out of line....... And then, there is the pay for teachers, that they want to pass a bill to make sure always stays with the national average, at $52,000 per year, and rising with each upgrade on a national level..... Now you have to remember that this town is not San Francisco or Los Angeles, or even Las Vegas, we are a lot smaller and have a much more divergent, transiet population and many of the workers in this population only make $6.5-8.50 per hour and they, the school union wants to put the teachers in the TOP income class of the working population in this whole area, where most families are struggling to make average about $32,000-38,000 with BOTH parents working. Seems a bit lopsided to me.....
And people wonder why teaching has gone downhill and is not producing results, the teachers and the school systems and the powers that be in those systems are at divergent ends that are, seemingly, only after the MONEY. The students don't see it, they are not getting taught any better for the money that the schools system has already been given, and thus, many parents and other powers are fighting giving them more, cause it is a MONEY PIT and nothing comes of the money that is already put out there.
Claudia |
Jarocal
Awareness Member
Post Number:
2
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 11:52 pm: | |
Claudia,
I have no problem with a teacher making the national average income as a union wage. I do have problems with district administrators starting at 6 figures in smaller districts. The theory is that if the money is right you will snag a really good admin from the pool of those applying or being sought by a paid Head hunting service (waste of taxpayer money in my opinion). It is not a difficult task to figure out how to teach children to be literate affordably. To do that does not require a PHD. I do not have a degree in teaching and I can even teach a child to read to the third grade level (and beyond).
As many problems as do plague the school systems I still go back to the parents. How disciplined do the parents stay in forming and promoting good habits in their children? How many parents do takle the time to encourage reading by actually reading the book along with the child and discussing it? Because they are out of school does not mean they would not benefit from reading the book again as much as the child will benefit from thewm taking the time to read the book with them and discuss it. If the parent does not have the time to do that with their child then they need to re-evaluate their habits and see where they can make the time. Not only does making the time for these discussions benefit the child educationally but it also keeps stronger communication tie within the family unit. If you are used to discussing themes and nuances about literature with your child all the time they will feel more comfortable discussing other issues with the parent. It will also give the parent oppurtunities to discuss personal moral beliefs with their children in a manner that does not seem like blatent prosetylizing (which even a child can recognize) or parental nagging. |
F.E. Mazur (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 4.224.78.186
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 05:38 am: | |
"I also believe they [teachers] should earn their pay be making it their point that the children learn. After all, isn't that what they're paid for?"
No, that is not what they are paid for. They are paid to teach. It is a mistake to think that 'teaching causes learning,' yet this has become a popular mantra over the past two decades. So popular that insurance is now offered to educators which will protect them against a student's claim that s/he failed to learn.
In too many schools, there is little opportunity to teach: 1) because discipline is out of control and today's teachers have no authority; 2) teachers are expected to assume far too many roles.
Compulsory military service is sometimes talked about in this country. I often wish for compulsory teaching of a year or two by all adults. THAT would open up some eyes and temper some mouths.
|
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
3028
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 06:07 am: | |
Oh yeah. I forgot the lotteries. Nebraska schmoozed taxpayers into voting for the lottery with promises of "dramatic increases in Lottery funding to education." OH yeah. Where did that go?
Maybe all states don't get federal funding?? But in the states I lived in - Kansas, Kentucky, and Nebraska - they did and still do get federal funding based on how many students attend each schoo, whether that school is urban or rural in designation and probably other criteria.
By politicians, I was referring to the congress and senate at the state and federal level. Unfortunately, our Superintendant of Schools and educators in this state at least do not receive high pay. They don't have the most comprehenxive retirement plan ever devised, the best health care plan ever devised - perks that coninue no matter how they lose their job. They don't have access to Air Force One, the Secret Service, freebie pleasure junkets alllll over the world.
What our educators do have access to is increasingly difficult students in every age group, less funding and more students every year.
Yes parental involvement is needed. Part of the problem is that in my area the parents are ill educated also. |
Bill Nelson
Wandering Member
Post Number:
161
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 08:50 am: | |
Please pass me the soap box. Thank you.
The kids of today have as parents, a generation (I think the first, en masse)of
"latch-key" kids. These parents were raised having to fend for themselves after school, maybe even into the evening. Single mom's and dad's and two-income families (gotta make money so we can have everything NOW) were mostly causative.
Now these kids have children of their own and are not conditioned to spend time with them in school work and social skills. Throw in the vastly increased wellfare group (mostly illegals that the government supports)who breed faster than tse-tse flies. Kids today mostly think of ME, ME, ME.
We got what we deserve as a society when family values diminished.
BN |
Gloria Marlow
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
959
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:11 am: | |
Bill, You stole my soap box! As a stay-at-home mom who turned her youngest child into a sort of "latch-key" kid two years ago, I agree. I take full share of my responsibility in not having enough time anymore to be a proper parent.
However, I stand by my belief that you can't make someone like to read. I can force my kids to read, yes, but I can't make them like doing it. My mother forced me to eat sweet potatoes. She was so sure I'd like them if I just tried them. 30 years later, I still don't like them and have never chosen to eat them after that initial taste. I say my son doesn't like to read, but he always is reading something. He likes information, though. He likes encyclopedia sorts of books that give him this wealth of information that he has in his head about reptiles, animals, fish, archaelogy, dinosaurs. He has numerous books like those and always wants more. That's also usually what he wants to watch on tv. He reads above his grade level and does very well on his standardized tests, but when I sit down with him to do his homework he looks at it and me like it's in a foreign language.
F.E. --- when I worked at day care, we always thought the parents should have to do some work there, too. I remember one mother who had quit her job and thought she'd like to work there...she made it through lunch the first day. Because I worked with kids for so long and because I was always involved in the kids' schools (without forcing my presence on them as some mothers do), I realize how difficult a job it is. I volunteered in the school office for a week or so when one of the ladies was out a few years ago. I was surprised at parents who came in to confront the teachers about things. Teachers should not have to be fearful of giving a child a failing grade or of disciplining a child. However, teachers should not use ridicule and humiliation in conversing with children. Irony and sarcasm are lost on an elementary age child who is being called upon for whatever reason, be it as part of teaching or disciplining.
I have always viewed my children's education as a partnership with their teachers, since we both have the same goal and worked together to reach it. However, this year was a difficult year as that partnership never formed with the teachers he had. I felt totally on the outside of his learning experience this year, except as someone to blame when he didn't do well.
I don't know why children don't like to read. Did they ever? I mean bookworms like most of us were did, but did the majority of kids you knew like to read? I don't remember any kids I knew liking to read. As a matter of fact, that's how I usually got rid of friends who wouldn't go home. I just opened a book and buried my nose in it. I was an oddity. I mean, honeslty, other kids never understood why I wanted to read.
I know I'm rambling, so I am going to quite down now.
|
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1260
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:35 am: | |
I am not about the income level of teachers per se, just that I think that the income of any person in any job should be prorated as to the economic levels at the place he resides, not at a national level that takes into account the top pay scales in places that far outweigh the population, economic equilivant income of area, cost of living index of area, and such on down the line, and skew things just for the benefit of one particular group. If a bank president in Nevada makes $50,000/per yr income, then why should a teacher in Nevada make $52,000 based on the teaching pay scales of say coaches who make $500,000 and other like professionals in sports or sciences who tout the big bucks, and skew the figures in favor of and for the basic teacher? That was all I was referring to in the above statement. I am not against the teacher earning a decent living, just am truly against all the money being spent on the teacher(s), schools, superintendents, administration, and peripherals, and not on the students.
Also, I tend to agree with Perry, about the lack of discipline in schools, in homes, in church, in anyplace. Keep the parents out of the school situations, don't let them sue said schools, for a teacher putting any appropriate punishment on a student for misbehavior. There is this thing that all kids now days know, that they cannot be reprimanded in any way or physically touched by anyone for any reason and believe me, they take advantage of it. Our own permissive behavior towards our kids has fostered this very behavior. We have become way to forgiving as a nation to our own godlike creatures that we call kids, and let them run amuck amongst us weilding every bit of power they can garner with the yell of "Ha, Ha, you can't do anything to me, cause I'll tell someone......" Who ever said a kid knows everything or every reason that something has to be done or every rule has to be obeyed at one time or another and sometimes there is not the room for a tantrum from them. Why did we lose the right to punish our own children in the privacy of our own homes? Because in some cases, not all, but some, someone stepped in and made it sound like child abuse...... well, in many cases it really isn't, it is just simple discipline. But we have had social services take that away from the rights of parents or school teachers. Bully for social services, but I think that they have carried it way to far, and in protecting the rights of some abused have stripped the rights of all parents to do what they think is necessary in the raising of their own children. Afterall, no one knows the child like the parent, and if you strip the parent of the abilitiy to do the job, then you give the kid a free hand to do whatever he wants.
Personally, I think, nothing does a kid as much good as a great spanking by someone that they respect. And one of the main reasons that they lack respect is because there is no one to make them hold it. But I am from the old shool in that matter, and I firmly believe that everyone should have some form of punishment other than a STUPID TIME OUT. That is the most ridiculous form of punishment that I think anyone ever came up with as a deterent to anything. All that does is give the person, kid or otherwise, a chance to think of something more dastardly in retaliation. Kids know that whenever anyone even yells at them, all they have to do is go cry about abuse and someone will haul the offending person who is trying to control the situation, off to jail for misdeamenor assault charges, even though nothing happened.
Kids win, and get to control every situation with just a yell of abuse. We have let the kids become our masters, not the parents controling what should be happeing, instead the kids run the show and control where, when and what is done to keep them HAPPY all the time, in any and all situations, not jsut at school. They throw tantrums in stores and we shut them up by buying them something, they throw tantrums in restraunts and we shut them up by feeding them what they want, whether or not it is appropriate, etc, etc........
I think that it is time for the parents of the country to get up off the couch or stop the treadmill running so much to fit everything into the lives of their families and get back to the raising of those that they spawned as a family. They, the kids, don't need all the latest fads and fashions and gizmos, they need love, respect, decency, honor and internal fortitude. We as parents, are the only ones that can make sure that they have those things. We are the only ones that can teach them values, and we don't do it anymore, we buy them the last game and tell them to go play it and leave us alone, so we can make more money to buy them one more game and leave us alone more....... (this is an assessment of some of the population, not necessarily all the population, or those on this baord.) Just passing thoughts about the decay of our society as a general problem and possible solution.
Claudia |
Gloria Marlow
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
960
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 11:42 am: | |
I never could figure out how to make a two or three year old sit in time out. When my kids were that age, I carried a wooden spoon in my purse. Although, my son says he remembers me "breaking limbs out of pine trees"...he's fifteen and thinks it's his responsibility to tell me how much meaner I was to him than I am to his brother. I told him pine tree limbs do not make good switches, but my mother taught me the fine art of picking just the right switch from the bush, swatting it through the air a few times, and taking the leaves off one by one while the kid (older than two or three) watches and you remain totally silent. That does more than the swat or two they get with it.
I know parents who have never taken their kids to the grocery store with them or to a restaraunt. Then the first time they have to, their kids misbehave and they can't figure out why. Kids learn things by doing them and becoming familiar with them. I always had to take mine with me, so they knew how to behave wherever we went, and if they didn't they learned. People don't have to do that as much anymore. Plus I think from talking to young mothers that there is a lot of guilt in spanking your child. My sister says she works all week and doesn't want the weekends to be all about disciplining him and making him behave. Of course, this just makes her miserable because he is bad wherever she takes him or it leads to her leaving him with someone while she goes anywhere which means she doesn't see him much more during the weekend than the week. Of course, these same people surprise me in that when they do smack their kid, the kid smacks them back and all if forgotten. I don't know what I would have done to my kids had they ever decided to smack me and I'm going to guess they were afraid to find out.
Now, I have heard women berating and cursing their children throughout the grocery stores, etc. I can't stand that. Why is that less harmful than a quick smack on the behind? Plus, it doesn't work nearly as well.
Kids do know the limits on what adults can do to punish them. I've always signed the paper saying my kids could get swats at school. They would protest, of course, but I would just tell them that if they behaved, they had nothing to worry about.
I have a cousin who was always a real smart aleck. She yelled at her mother, our grandmother, everyone. She just talked to anyone however she wanted. Until one day when she was about seven or eight and she smarted off to my mom. My mom grabbed her by the chin and forced her to look at her. She said very calmly, "You might talk to everyone else like that, but you better never talk to me like that again." She never did and she loves my mom to pieces.
There is no excuse for parents not disciplining their children. Disciplining your children is part of loving and nurturing them. They can never grow into resposnible, well-rounded adults if they care about no one but themselves.
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Tulla
Hunger Member
Post Number:
69
Registered: 12-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 11:51 am: | |
Okay I have get on the soapbox.....
Reading-I am one of the few who has read to my children since the day they were born. In fact, my cats even join in and listen. Today-they are teenagers, they do see me reading and they read. I read more than I watch tv. I catch the latest news flashes when I log into the internet.
Teachers-They are under paid. But I would not say over worked, summers off, 2 weeks at Christmas, week in the spring, more in service days than Carter has liver pills, this is in Colorado though.
The teachers around here are threatening a strike come fall, which means the juniors in high school today will have to make up time next spring, plus it threatens the fall sports in school. Now last Friday a couple of the schools in the district decided to have the blue flu, which means all the teachers whether union or not (nots were threaten if they crossed the line) did not show up to work. Which meant those kids did not get any information at all what is going to happen on finals this week, plus the Seniors sorta could not check out of school.
I have no problem with the schools or teachers, my father was a superintend of schools, high school math teacher, principle, etc., for a long time, BUT here I sit as one of the unemployed Americans that would die for a job at the moment. I am living off my savings. My unemployment number is not even counted till I can draw unemployment again.
I have friends (teachers & aides) who will be joining the unemployment ranks because our school district screwed up big time. These friends (mostly teachers) have never worked in the real world realizing vacation you might not get for the first year. They may have to work through Christmas and New Years.
It is not up to the Teachers to teach our children everything; it is up to us as parents to support what they are teaching and even expand what our children learn. It should not be left up in the teacher’s hands. I have backed the teachers my children have had, and IF I saw a problem I did speak up, most of the time those teachers did not like me pointing out the oblivious such as not all kids learn the same way, or they are a role model. HMMMM those are the teachers who put a code name on me. But we as parents need to stand up for our kids, if we don't who will.
I agree there are parents out there who buy stuff for their kids instead of spending QUALITY time with them. My ex rather give my son money then take a walk with him or watch a football game with him or see him play football. My son has shown that he enjoys the QUALITY time I spend with him than his father’s money. Who is showing the good role model? In my teenagers eye it is me, his mother. His friends automatically migrate to me. He says he does not understand why, but it makes him proud, because they tell him he has the cool mom. BECAUSE I sit and listen and ask what is going on.
SO PARENTS of AMERICA stand up and take a stand for today’s generation and show you can be a good role model.
READ and practice what you preach.
Okay now it is someone elses turn....I pass the box.
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Jarocal
Awareness Member
Post Number:
3
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 01:40 pm: | |
[quote]"However, I stand by my belief that you can't make someone like to read. I can force my kids to read, yes, but I can't make them like doing it. My mother forced me to eat sweet potatoes. She was so sure I'd like them if I just tried them. 30 years later, I still don't like them and have never chosen to eat them after that initial taste."[/quote]
Forcing reading on children and forcing a child to eat a food they don't likebased on the premise they will grow to like them are two different things. Requiring reading on the childs part with supplemental discussion will give the child a higher literacy and comprehension level wether they like the reading or not. Having kids like to read is noice but should not be the goal of educators. They goal should be that they can read and comprehend on a certain level irregardless of the child liking to do it or not. A taste for sweet potatoes is not a requirement for graduation. The ability to read and understand what you are reading at a certain level is.
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Gloria Marlow
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
961
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 03:06 pm: | |
I agree the comparison wasn't a good one. Kids must know how to read, I agree. I am truthfully quite disappointed that my children don't love to read. I can't imagine two people who read more than my husband and me. I can't imagine anyone who reads to their children more than I did. However, none of that evolved into people who love to read. I honestly and forever will think that avid readers are that way from the beginning. I'm not talking about being able to read. The basic premise of this thread was that book sales are falling. I would say most of the books bought throughout the year are bought by the same individuals...the readers in society. The bookworms if you will. The majority of people know how to read. There are others who can discuss and comprehend what they are reading, but that doesn't make them bookbuyers or people who enjoy reading.
My whole point is that, yes, at school and for school children must be forced to do some things they don't like, but to expect that a child isn't being raised right or is just plain lazy/stupid because he doesn't want to read over and beyond the books that are being read and discussed in class is wrong. I know many successful, intelligent people who never cracked open a book except the ones required in school.
I graduated 18 years ago next week. The curriculum and other things have changed quite a lot since then. I don't know that a lot of the changes are for the better. I think we have become hellbent on standardizing everyone. Every child has to fit in a certain space with everyone else...no child left behind and no child pushed ahead. Everyone's talents, abilities should be equal. We can want that until we're blue in the face, but it isn't going to happen. Children are individuals, adults are individuals and thinking that learning is something that can be done without individuality isn't right. Forcing children to behave is one thing, forcing them to be someone they're not is totally different. I remember being in Adavanced Placement English as a senior and not having to read as much at home as my 4th grader does. We read books, poems, etc. and discussed them as a class. I think we had to write a book report once every nine weeks. And this forced reading doesn't seem to be helping. Children who can't read, aren't learning to read by having to read 25 books at home. They just write the title, the author and the name of the book down in their reading log and no one knows any difference than the child whose parents helped them read their books.
I don't know exactly what my point is exactly --- so, I'm going to hush.
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LaurieAnne
Unity Member
Post Number:
1464
Registered: 12-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 03:06 pm: | |
Perry,
Although I do not intend it that way, it seems that you and I end up on different ends of the spectrum quite regularly.
My point:
My 7-year-old son just so happens to be one of those kids with discipline problems who is currently on "drugs", as you put it. I have consented to the lowest dose he can take. Whether you approve of it or not, there just so happens to be children who really do NEED a little medication to help them. The generalized statement you made above merely matches the assumptions most people have.
My son is in no way a problem student. He is intelligent enough to be scary sometimes. And in many settings, he is fine. But in other settings, he simply cannot concentrate on anything. School happens to be one of those settings. The teacher, who has the responsibility of teaching 22 students, was having to stand directly beside my son all day long. "Next question. Okay, next question. Okay, that one's done, now the next one." His discipline problems have been slowly being conquered over the last couple of years, but there for a while, I was seriously concerned about my son. He was showing so many signs, and nothing I did seemed to make a difference.
I am very involved in my children's lives. Obviously, lack of involvement cannot be blamed.
I disagree with separating the children as you have mentioned, as well. Children must learn to adapt to all situations, all persons.
I do agree with ridding national standards only because it pits the children against each other. There are some children who will get more and more discouraged to see that they rank in the lower 50th percentile on standardized testing. This then trips them further and further into the lower half because they reach the point of saying, "Forget it, I'll never get up there." And frankly, that's merely because SOMEONE HAS TO BE LAST in the percentile scoring system. If everyone in the country scored between 90-100% of the questions correctly, then everyone who had scored 90% correct would scale into the lower 10 percentile on the standardized testing. This form of scoring is just plain wrong. Or, if someone were to score only 89% of the answers correctly, they would then rank so low that they would be lucky to even HAVE a ranking other than Below Average.
Off of that box...
I'm going to leave the lottery thing alone. I know how it works in Michigan. They SAID that the lottery would go toward education. In the fine print of the bill, it stated that the lottery revenue would go into the general fund, to be used as any other general fund money.
I'm more into the arena of why are the politicians allowed to vote themselves a raise at ANYTIME when budget cuts loom on the horizon. You want a raise? no. Sorry. Education of OUR FUTURE comes first.
Now, I could go on and on about a few other things, but let me just say that the day a teacher makes THAT much money will be the day I go back to school and get another degree. My husband and I combined, with me working 3 jobs and him 1, have never come anywhere close to that much per year. And I'm in freakin' management. My last vacation was more than 2 years ago. I missed my daughters' band banquet Monday night due to work, and I missed my son's kindergarten graduation in order to make sure the bills could get paid. Until recently, in the last 4 years, sleep was a rarity, because if I slept while I was home, I would not have ever seen my children. (Don't anyone ask me about the husband only working 1 job or what he does with the kids. You don't want to go there, and I'm in a mood, so just please, do not ask. I'd hate to have to ignore someone on account of the need for decency.)
My now 13-yr-old barely even knew her alphabet when she was halfway through 1st grade. I'm the one who taught her to read, not her teacher. The 17-yr-old had to be taught by daycare (step-son; his father and I had not met at that time). My older children now help out with the younger ones because they know that I am doing everything I can to do everything, and I am only one person. And, yes, I was a latch-key kid. We always came home to an empty house. We took care of ourselves every night, and on weekends. But we still take part in our kids lives. And yet, with all of the extra attention from the older kids, and all the sleepless nights, all the hugs, all the singing, and reading, the love and attention, with everything, my son is still ADHD, still needs some minor medication to assist his concentration efforts.
Oh, and one more thing,
I MAKE my children ALL (and that means all 5 of them) learn how to do math without a calculator, including square roots. They ALL learn how to write proper sentences. They ALL learn how to speak with respect.
I am going to stop rambling now. I'm in one of those moods (mentioned earlier, I know) where things could turn stupid and b*&^^y---just 'cause. I hope I have remained at least mostly coherent during this overture. I do beg your pardon if such is not the case.
LA
LaurieAnne
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Bill Nelson
Wandering Member
Post Number:
162
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 03:57 pm: | |
LaurieAnne,
Go take a swig of your sons's meds.
You hit a nerve. Growing up, one of the things I always had a knack for was doing math in my head. I didn't have the benefit of hand-helds in college and it served me well. However, as the years have rolled by I've gotten lazy. I use a calculator to do 2x2 now. It's a mind set I guess. Your children will probably never thank you for making them do the stuff "the old fashioned way", but rest assured they will be better off for it.
bn |
Todd Hunter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1558
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 04:13 pm: | |
My grandfather was a county superintendent here in Kansas during the 1950s and/or 1960s...one day, I need to tape record his stories of the ways in which he got around problems with the lack of funding, disciplinary problems, etc. It would make a fantastic book...... |
Perry Comer
Unity Member
Post Number:
1371
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 04:20 pm: | |
Laurie I am sorry if I hit your nerve - we do disagree often but that is ok - isn't it?
I've spent a few years teaching college courses. I've also taught basic education to prison inmates. You would be surprised at the number of college aged people still taking "drugs" to handle their behavior and learning problems. Yes, some of it is needed but there are many more kids taking "drugs" than should be. I did point out that those doctors who make their living prescribing those drugs should be locked up. It is amazing the number of parents who insist the doctor prescribe something for thier child.
In our state, children on "drugs" are to go the first six weeks without the drugs so they can be "evaluated". Can you imagine the chaos this causes the teachers trying to get the kids on task? Yes, special needs kids need to be seperate.
It is not fair to the kids who are mentally and physically adjusted to be held back from acheiving their potential. The teachers are caught in the middle between the special needs kids parents and the gifted talented kids parents. When it is your child, it is easy to complain in order to get the best for your child. Pity the teachers caught in the middle.
you can make some of the people happy some of the time but not all of them all the time
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
tracy sutterer
Awareness Member
Post Number:
28
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 07:14 pm: | |
Thank you, Frank. I appreciate your comments. We are expected to do fill many shoes and assume many roles that are not are ours to take on. I will be writing you an email soon.
I try to stay out of debates on the subject of education. My objectivity is often called into question, but what the hay.
I work with some pretty rough kids. Some of the parents are great... some are impossible to get a hold of. I disagree with the idea of making my phone number unlisted. I would love to hear from the parents of my kids. I call them quite often. I've been known to take phone numbers home with me to call the parents at night ... catching them home during the day is not always possible.
I also disagree with the medication debate. There are times that meds are absolutely necessary. If a medication helps to give one of my kids the ability to focus, then do it.
There are federal laws governing whether special needs kids are to be in regular ed classes or not. It depends on the IEP the kid is on. Teachers have to go by those laws. To put kids with disabilities or behavior problems all in one room, does not necessarily benefit the kids. It truly depends on the type of disability or behavior problem in question. I have many IEP kids in my classroom and they do well. If I kicked out every kid I have with behavior problems, my classes would be empty on some days. I roll with the punches and as much as possible I deal with those kids myself. I have sent a total of 6 kids to the office this entire year and that is up from last year. I absolutely hate to do that and I only do it when everything else I've tried has failed.
For the most part, the kids in my classrooms and I get along very well. I relate to most all of their personal life trials and I treat them with respect at all times. That is the key. It is really hard for a kid to treat me in a disrespectful manner when I'm not doing it to them. The other kids in my class will call them on it.
I love my job. That helps as well.
Tracy
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Jarocal
Awareness Member
Post Number:
4
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 08:32 pm: | |
Gloria,
I guess to get the discussion back on topic (since I am one of the major offenders of the digression). I would say that there are a lot of reasons for the decline in book sales.
How many commmercials do you see about buying a book? I am not talking TV exposure such as writers appearing on talk shows, or reviews of a book on a program. I am talking about How many times to you see a ten second commercial blurb about newly released book? How many comercials do you see for Brick and mortar book stores? Many offer products and services beyond walking in, buying a book going home and reading it. Many have local artist nights where local music performers give small concerts. Many have cafe shops in them where a person can grab a light lunch and read the paper or relax while enjoying a coffe and a magazine away from the office. Now that you have tallied all those conmmercials in mind, how many times did you see a trailer for the movie Fellowship Of The Ring? You won't be able to recall an exact number but it is definitely a lot higher than the commercial advertising that you saw for all the things above together. Tolkien's books were also probably one of the bestselling books in the Fantasy genre before the release of the movies also.So why don't you see more advertising for books? Nike will spend milllions to get an athelete to put their name on a book but when the athelete writes a book do they start runing commercial spots for their book? We are a consumer nation and we purchase what is pounded into our psyche everyday in the media. SUV's have always been around but it was a media campaign on the part of the automakers that created the demand for the oversized fuel guzzling machines. For the majority of Americans the idea of buying a book is put to us less and less while "buy the DVD" is increasing in the number of times that we see it everyday.
Couple that with;
An economy in recession ( the only reason the unemployment numbers are down is that the extended benifits for unemployment are coming to an end so there are less people drawing).
A years worth of events that have kept many families glued to CNN and MSNBC. (which I don't feel is a topic I want to discuss on this forum, I despise politics to begin with)
the declining literacy levels of our graduation age children (which I've expressed my views about in previous posts)
and there should be little wonder why the number of books being sold is declining.
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Perry Comer
Unity Member
Post Number:
1373
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 08:55 pm: | |
and prices
entertainment in general is out of sight
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Gloria Marlow
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
963
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 09:52 pm: | |
Jarocal, We all got off topic, we do that all the time. It's the normal flow of conversation, or at least, that's my opinion. I hope I didn't offend you stating what the basic premise was. I couldn't care less how far of topic we get. I just really believe "readers" does not include everyone with the ability to read.
I'm sure all the reasons you stated are correct. I am certain that book publishing is not a "get rich quick" sort of industry. There seems to be a narrow profit margin if the books are reasonably priced and I'm sure that leaves little for television commercials and billboards. That is why placement in bookstores and other actual locations is so important. No books, not the latest bestseller or the newest nobody are going to get the kind of promotion and advertising that other industries can give their products.
I really, really am not good at math and especially this late at night I'm not sure how to say what I'm about to say, so hopefully someone can figure it out. If you consider that they are using the number of new books published last year and the number of books bought, it may just seem worse than it is. Consider that since December, PublishAmerica has published over 1,000 new books. I think this is what I'm saying. If there are 100,000 books on the market and people buy 10,000, then book sales are happening at 10%. If there are 200,000 books on the market the following year and those same people buy 10,000, then book sales have dropped to 5%. Even if you had a few more people buying books, if it doesn't double, then there was still a decline in book sales. Could it be that the market is just being flooded with book titles that aren't easily available to the normal everyday bookbuyer? I assume these books would be counted in the number of books published, so the would make a difference in one part of the ratio. However, because they're not being bought, the other side of the ratio would be unevenly affected.
Did that make any sense? I'm going to bed now before my brain explodes.
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Jarocal
Awareness Member
Post Number:
5
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:14 pm: | |
I was not offended in the least.
My premise on the ability to read transferring to 'readers' is that the less of our children who are able to read, the less that will be 'readers'. A person cannot be a cobbler until they learn to make and repair shoes, a person cannot be a farmer until they learn to take care of their crops or livestock. Until our youth are given adequate training the will be unable to become readers. It has nothing to do with the some kids knowing how to read but choosing not to(although I spent time on that topic too), It has to do with the fact that as a larger segment of the American population grows up unable to read adequately, the more you will see a decline in book sales, standardized test scores (which are not as useless as many purport), and the proper use of the English language.
I did not bother to look at the method they used for defining a decline in Book sales. They may have just went off of the total number of titles reported sold or the may have went by dollar amount sold. Numbers are nice in that generally you can twist a statistic to fit your need. |
LaurieAnne
Unity Member
Post Number:
1466
Registered: 12-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 01:47 pm: | |
Gloria,
You made perfect sense to me. But that isn't saying much, because I haven't made much sense at all to anyone today. LOL
LA
LaurieAnne
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Gloria Marlow
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
965
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 01:56 pm: | |
LaurieAnne,
That is probably a bad, bad sign. It means you've heard/read one too many of my midnight ramblings. 
Gloria |
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