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Message |
    
Frederick A. Babb
Hunger Member
Post Number:
94
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 08:31 am: |   |
It seems that everytime I think that I am about to finish my novel on terrorism, something new occurs in our world that creates more material, more chapter, but mostly, more saddness and pain.
In Russia, as of this writing, there are 322 dead. Over 150 of them our children. Compound this with the 9 that died in the car bomb and the 89 that died in the two airplane explosions and you have a figure of over 400 dead in Russia in a two week timeframe.
When will it stop? I wish I could pen my last chapter of my novel and, with it, end the terrorism. But, has we have played witness in Iraq, conventional war is rapidly becoming a thing of the past as terrorism and terrorist acts have become the methods of choice for combats of modern day.
Each death, each emotional and physcial scar that is left behind, is another tragedy throughout the world. No country is free of it anymore. The terrifying truth is that matters will only get worse, not better in the fight against terrorism.
The bottom line, regardless of your race, religion or sex, is that terrorism has affected and will continue to affect your life for many years to come. That is the sad, cruel reality of a world that we all live in.
Preview books: http://www.frederickbabb.bravehost.com |
Lois Barg
Awareness Member
Post Number:
2
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 09:11 am: | |
Hi Frederick,
I would like to read your book when it's available. You sound like a compassionate man. Have you noticed that compassion and empathy are slowly dwindling in our world? Even though most of us are fortunate enough to live in a somewhat safe place terrorism still affects us everyday, but instead of making us kinder, gentler people, more available to people who need us, I find, in my city, most not all, people are hard. People avoid eye contact, they avoid simple salutations like, "Good Morning." I think people have become afraid of people.
I'm sorry if I'm rambling and thanks for listening. Frederick,it's nice to know a compassionate man. |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
3365
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 09:19 am: | |
I recently read a book called Home to War by Gerald Nicosia. One descriptive term used stuck with me, and is appropriate to quote regarding your post, Fred.
"There is an unredeemable blackness at the heart of modern warfare."
I took that to mean that nothing is sacred. There are no clear cut victories, and anything goes. Smoke and mirrors disguise the truth. Women and children suffer the same fates as terrorists or warriors.
However, I disagree that such warfare is modern or of recent times. I read an equally excellent book called The Sultan by T.J. Koll about the Crusades centuries ago. The techniques of warring then were not "modern". There were no nuclear warheads, no planes, no satellites, no smart bombs. Battles were up close and personal with swords and scimitars. Still, those who waged the wars did so out of greed or power as motives. God and Allah had nothing to do with it. The same heart of blackness existed then. We just did not have CNN to show us footage on a minute by minute basis.
I'm neither a hawk nor a dove, not republican or democrat. This is strictly my opinion. All wars through time were hell, and will continue to be so. |
Pacwriter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1654
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 09:24 am: | |
Shooting children in the back is no worse than stuffing them into gas chambers. Only people not fit to live do such things.
My compassion is reserved for those families who mourn their children. My anger is reserved for those less than human beings who kill in the name of thier gods.
No political cause is worth one child's life.
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Kevin Yarbrough
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
433
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 09:35 am: | |
The advantage of the emotions is that they lead us astray. -Oscar Wilde |
Frederick A. Babb
Hunger Member
Post Number:
99
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:29 pm: | |
Lois,
Living in Spain, I have seen acts of terrorism more often than most in the states could imagine. Having lost friends to such acts over the years has been painful because there is no logic behind it. You look, you attempt to understand the terrorist point of view (no matter how twisted it might be) and you come up with only questions and no answers.
After the train bombing in Madrid, I was compelled to write about terrorism although it isn't my genre. The book focuses on Al-Qaeda, ETA and the history of modern day terrorism. Mostly though, it focuses on the human factor. The names, the emotions behind those statistics. Numbers of body counts had lives, hopes and dreams. All taken away with no respect to them.
To give a prelude to my research, modern day terrorism was started by the French. Right, the same ones that refuse to support any strong measures against terrorism, the ones that harbor dictators that are ousted from their countries and the same ones that currently have two hostages held in Iraq for a law against wearing vails in school. Ironic to say the least. After the French Revolution, the new government used terrorist tatics to assure that no group could organize and rebel against them. The very word of terrorism comes from French origins.
Laurel, that quote is too true. Terrorist are heartless, cruel, and sadistic. One thing most terrorist are not is stupid. They are of the most intelligent, patient groups of people around. They wait days, months and years to act.
I don't know the news that is given in the states, but in Spain they said that the terrorist had spent the past two months of summer taking advantage of the school being closed to plant many bombs there. This was not a spur of the moment event, rather a well planned out attack that was thought through with no regard to life, young or old.
I invite everyone to go to the webpage in my signature block and read the speech that Prime Minister Rabin wrote when he attempted to wage peace. The words that will forever stick out in my mind is when he said "...enough of blood and tears. Enough!"
Pac, I agree and will go one step further. No life is worth the sacrafice of any political or religious cause. Tonight, the world is just a bit more cruel, a bit more cold and a bit less safe.
Preview books: http://www.frederickbabb.bravehost.com |
Bill Nelson
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
461
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:30 pm: | |
Kevin,
Did someone give you a book of quotes?
bn |
Gary D. Kessler
Wandering Member
Post Number:
270
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 03:29 pm: | |
"You look, you attempt to understand the terrorist point of view (no matter how twisted it might be) and you come up with only questions and no answers."
Hmm, as a longtime resident outside of the United States--and as one who walked around with a target on my back (it came with the territory in being the senior acknowledged CIA official living in the Middle East), I'd have to say I've come away with an entirely different take than you have, Fred. The points of view of the terrorists in that region (and in Southeast Asia when I lived/worked there) weren't at all hard to figure out. I certainly didn't agree with them, but I didn't have a bit of trouble of understanding that I was a target and why that was--what their reasons were. Motivations I can't understand are the simple meaningless crimes like dropping big rocks off overpasses onto cars driving below or taking an Uzi into a fast food restaurant and spraying everyone inside with bullets just for whatever money is in the till on a Tuesday night. A lot less of that happened in the foreign (to me) countries I've lived in than happens in the United States. |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
679
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 11:58 pm: | |
The illustrated novel I'm currently writing, Vigilantes, concerns the reaction of small town and rural America to the horrific events of 911. Since I am in the habit of putting my material online as I write it, you're welcome to read the rough draft for free by going to http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm. As always, your comments and suggestions are appreciated. They may or may not influence the final manuscript.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Frederick A. Babb
Wandering Member
Post Number:
101
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 04:06 am: | |
Gary,
The causes that terrorist defend are easy to understand. To understand who they choose as their targets is easy to understand. I will not argue that with you. However, the reasoning of cowardly killing innocent people to make a statement never makes sense. Or maybe it does to you. To me, I haven't ever been able to justify any deaths caused by terrorist.
I too, am a longtime resident living outside the US and I have witness terrorism in Spain before it was a serious threat in the US. ETA is a vicious terrorist group that lies under the idea of a independent country for the Basque Country and kill to achieve that cause. I have lost good Spanish friends to their cause. If you can make sense of their lost, please explain it because you will be the first to be able to tell the families of the victims that they did not die in vain and their deaths have an understanding behind them.
Maybe shooting up a restaurant for whatever money is in the register seems wrong, but at least the cause of being drugged and looking for money to feed the habit is less cowardly than cunningly planning to kill. Both are tragic, but one is a reaction and deaths of innocent people are more in line with collartoral damage, the other is thought out with the exact plan to kill people for no other reason than to state a cause. Thus, I can't really make a comparison between the two.
Preview books: http://www.frederickbabb.bravehost.com |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1849
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 07:19 am: | |
Just as an aside, I believe there's a difference between understanding a terrorist's motives for killing, and believing those motives are justified...just as there is a difference between understanding a drug addict's motives for armed robbery, and believing those motives are justified...
Moving back off into the shadows...
Mindsight Moderator
Check out Who Needs a Hero?
|
Gloria Marlow
Unity Member
Post Number:
1139
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 09:30 am: | |
I think there must come a time when terrorism binds the rest of the world together against it. I was crying the other day after watching those parents running toward the school, some to come away with their children and some to come away empty-handed. My mom said, "A lot of Americans will look at this and not care because it happened in Russia." I wonder how someone can not care, how they can not see themselves echoed in the worried eyes and broken hearts of those parents. |
Gary D. Kessler
Wandering Member
Post Number:
272
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 10:49 am: | |
Bingo, Todd. In my posting, I said I could understand the motivations of terrorists. I also said I didn't agree with them. |
Bill Nelson
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
464
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 11:16 am: | |
Gloria,
I shared your pain. Those poor innocents. Those that survived will be
scared for the rest of their lives from the terror they felt.
What kind of human being could look at a suffering child who ask for water and laugh in their face? What kind of human being could shoot children in the back as they ran for their lives?
Whether it is religious fervor or hatred or whatever that drives these people, they need to be annihilated, not jailed, exterminated.
I hope you're right. I hope the whole world will rise up and stomp them out regardless of political implications.
It has to stop!
bn |
Gary D. Kessler
Wandering Member
Post Number:
274
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 01:13 pm: | |
Well, Bill, the Chechneans say the same thing about the Russians (that the Russians performed atrocities on the Chechnean civilian population until they couldn't take it anymore--and as with the theater death toll, by the way, you'll find that the Russians themselves did most of the killing at that school yesterday), and, Fred, the Basque terrorists will say they've gotten the same treatment from the Spanish for over a century--and both will say that they are just doing the same thing that the Americans did to overthrow the British oppressors (and just because our history books don't include examples of atrocities in support of "freedom" from that period doesn't mean they didn't exist). I lived extensively in Cyprus, where both the Greeks and Turks have atrocity stories to tell on each other that would curl your toes. I pulled Palestinians out of camps in Ramalah right before our good friends and allies, the Israelis, mowed everyone--men, women, children, pets--down there. I've seen and heard of what an American can do in a foreign war zone as well--and anyone else who wants to actually tune in to that could have heard atrocity stories as recently as last evening's news (e.g., abusing an Iraqi general's son in front of him until the general revealed some information we wanted). It all depends on whose ox is being gored--so nobody from anywhere has reason to be self-righteous about this. It isn't pretty and it isn't right, but it's human and it's what people do to each other in either pursuit of "freedom" or religious/ethnic supremacy. But I find that most of us tune out the parts we don't want to hear (about ourselves) and keep everything simple in what we will listen to and permit ourselves to know--it's so much easier to be self-righteous and comfortable that way. |
Bill Nelson
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
468
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 01:23 pm: | |
Gary,
It's okay to editorialize the situation, but the Russians didn't instigate
this particular episode and NO ONE can trace the events back to an original cause. It's somewhere in the dim past.
TODAY, NOW, we (USA and certain allies) have the big stick. Use it!
We'll moralize later. This is non-sense.
bn |
Harry Simenon
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
370
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 01:26 pm: | |
I'm afraid I have to agree with you Gary.
If it is done to us it is wrong, if we do it to others it is right.
(being cynical here.)
I think that at least one side needs to start fighting fair, or terrorism will not stop.
Terrorism fuels terrorism. |
Gary D. Kessler
Wandering Member
Post Number:
275
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 01:40 pm: | |
I'm not editorializing, Bill--I'm just pointing out the reality. A reality that some of us have had to live with daily so all the rest can lead (relatively)comfortable lives uncomplicated by reality (right up until two towers come down). Every terrorist will rationalize that this is already being done to them and they just want it to stop being done to them--and most of them are right; it's layers and layers and centuries and centuries of cruelty and suppression. Pretending it isn't there isn't one of viable options of getting it stopped.
(And, P.S., the Russian atrocities in Chechnea most definitely are not in a dim past--they are just in some category you probably ignored at the time because they didn't concern or motivate you.) |
Bill Nelson
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
472
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:04 pm: | |
Gary,
I read a newspaper once. I'm aware of the Russians recent history in Chechnea
and other areas. Some of us are really not sheep with only a few folks, such as your self, in the know.
Finger pointing is an art today. So what!
When armed insurgents hole up in a mosque and kill our troops from its cover I think we should level it instead of fearing we'll hurt someone's feelings if we dent the paint. Give them the idea that the next time they try to gain advantage by hiding under the skirt of some Iman, the same thing will happen.
There wil come a time in the not too distant future when we won't have economic and military advantage if we continue to appease, appease, appease. What did we do in response to Pearl Harbor? Take the offensive. No matter how distasteful and horrible it is, better them over there than Americans over here.
I think we need to stomp, stomp, stomp. Right now. Today!
Now, I'll go back to reading my comic books.
bn |
Bill Nelson
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
473
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:08 pm: | |
PS
Forgive my acerbic tone. I am really pissed off today. I can't come to grips with those kinds of actions.
Todd, yes, better them than us, not that it is 'right' in either case.
bn |
Gary D. Kessler
Wandering Member
Post Number:
276
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:17 pm: | |
So, as I said up the string, I have no trouble understanding where the motivation for a terrorist comes from. Which, of course, doesn't make it right. |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1859
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:18 pm: | |
 eh? Did I miss something?
Mindsight Moderator
Check out Who Needs a Hero?
|
Bill Nelson
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
474
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 03:06 pm: | |
While we're on the topic of suicide bombers think about this.
Less than 100 lbs. of fissionable material (how hard can it be to smuggle 100 lbs of anything into our leaky borders?)jacketed by plastic explosives,set off in a car the size of a VW Bug driving down 5th Ave or Broadway in NY at rush hour (no airplanes needed) would create a blast with enough lethal radiation over enough square miles to make NYC TOTALLY UNIHABITABLE for a generation or more. That doesn't even account for the two to three million people who would be irradiated into a cancerous grave.
It requires no trillion dollar submarine sitting out in the Atlantic to deliver a multi-million dollar missle onto the city. It doesn't need an ICBM launched from North Korea across the Pacific to hit LA.
Does anyone have any idea where all of the former USSR's stockpiles are? Sources admit they don't have an accurate count. There are small, but dangerous, stockpiles of uranium 235 or plutonium in numerous Eastern European nations. You've got Iran and No Korea cooking every day. When they develop the technology to make weapons grade material, who thinks it won't be for sale on the black market?
What will our position be then?
This prospect upsets me to no end and I think we should do whatever we need to in order to prevent such events. Yes, preempteive in nature, not hit back after they blow up NYC or DC.
bn |
Gary D. Kessler
Wandering Member
Post Number:
277
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 03:24 pm: | |
Yep, I have an unpublished manuscript entitled "Homewrecker" that covers a quite similar scenario--all put together from publicly available news reports on actual events and international activity. Some of the material I've used for this fictional treatment can also be found in the current nonfiction best seller, Imperial Hubris, by Anonymous. |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
681
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 12:10 am: | |
Didn't I write Imperial Hubris? No, come to think of it, I wrote Bushwhacked. Wasn't it George W. who wrote Imperial Hubris? Anonymous? Never heard of him.
Immediately following 911 Yassar Arafat donated a pint of blood to the victims. It was obvious at the time that Arafat and the majority of Muslims were doing everything they could do to disassociate themselves from Al-Qaeda and Osama. Today, the exact opposite seems to be true. Mistakes were made. Hopefully, we have learned something from them.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm |
Bill Nelson
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
475
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 08:17 am: | |
Note to Harry.
If one engages in a fight in a bar room, one will get one's butt kicked if one
tries to employ the Marquis of Queensbury rules. One must kick, bite, scratch,
strike with bottles and cue sticks in order to win.
The fight against OBL and his ilk is a bar room brawl.
It's idealistic to think otherwise.
bn |
Frederick A. Babb
Wandering Member
Post Number:
111
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 11:26 am: | |
How many terrorist actually believe that their cowardly acts will have an impact on world governments quickly changing their stance and giving in to the terrorist? (Well, ok, let us forget about Manila's reaction to the terrorist in Iraq). To give in to any terrorist act gives them power and encourage more such acts. Good examples are the two Frenchmen kidnapped in Iraq. France opposed the Iraq war and never sent troops there. Yet, the terrorist saw it fit to kidnap two Frenchmen because they opposed the law that prohibited Islamic girls to wear veils in school. Explain to me how France provoked the terrorist.
After researching for my terrorism book, I found something unique about ETA. They strive for independence for the Basque country. Yet, in the 5000 plus years of their existence there, they never once were independent nor had their own ruling government. So, ETA is basing their acts on an idea of an independent country that never existed.
Also, the very Basque people of Navarra refuse to partake in ETA's claim because they know that the Basque country is not capable of supporting itself independently nor does it have any historical reference to prove such. The bottom line is that ETA only seeks to use the idea of "Basque pride" to justify terrorism idea. Yet, the bottom line is that they are a group of greedy individuals that strong arm factories into paying a "freedom tax" so that the very terrorist that fight for "independence" are really lining their pockets.
What was once a political group in opposition of the politics of Franco in the Basque country has gone so badly wrong.
In war there are never any winners, only conquerors. Nevertheless, if we were to go back and return every bit of land that was ever won in a war to the original occupiers, there would be many people in the USA catching planes back to Europe, Asia and Africa. That is fair, but I doubt many people would want to go to that extreme. So why is it that they feel that land conquered when the USSR was a country must be returned to the original people? Double standards? Either it is all for history or we except the boundaries of today and learn to live in them peacefully.
The bottom line is that terrorist that hang on to what once was many years, decades or centuries ago and use it as reasoning for conducting terrorist acts need to really be questioned of their true motives. More often than not, behind every terrorist act, there is a person/people that seek power and/or wealth.
Preview books: http://www.frederickbabb.bravehost.com |
Gary D. Kessler
Wandering Member
Post Number:
284
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 12:11 pm: | |
Sorry, Fred, but none of this can be reduced to simple logic. That's not the way ethnic or religious emotionalism works. And it doesn't just go away if it seems to you to be illogical.
"How many terrorist actually believe that their cowardly acts will have an impact on world governments quickly changing their stance and giving in to the terrorist?"
Actually, terrorist acts affect a lot of world government decisions. You pointed to one yourself. But it's meaningless to put a "quickly changing their stance" caveat on it, because reality doesn't fall within such limits. It should be obvious that the September 11th terrorist event has had catastrophic, deep effect on whole dimensions of U.S. government decisions, actions, and spending choices and on the whole social and economic structure of the United States. The vast effect from a small investment is one of the real advantages terrorism enjoys. The terrorists know they can get maximum bang for their buck; that's really pretty self-evident.
"Yet, in the 5000 plus years of their existence there, they never once were independent nor had their own ruling government. So, ETA is basing their acts on an idea of an independent country that never existed."
This seems rather irrelevant. You don't have to have once been an independent country to strive to be an independent country--and/or to use terrorism as a means to get there. The United States wasn't an independent country before it rebelled to obtain independence; and it used terroristic tactics to get there.
And again, one of the axioms of war by terrorism is that you don't follow the rules anyone else sets or stay within the bounds of their perceptions of what is/isn't logical. |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
684
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 02:58 pm: | |
I agree that there is no logic and that terrorists don't follow the rules. That's why I support using overwhelming force. It's too late for anything else.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm |
Gary D. Kessler
Wandering Member
Post Number:
286
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 03:06 pm: | |
Unfortunately, Fred D. (unfortunate because it can't bring back what's happened in the intervening time), I think the traditional answer of my former employer would have been/would be the best all around option--pay to have key individuals "removed," and just continue to pay to have their replacements "removed." I think the massive retaliation option was a messy nonstarter to begin with. |
Pacwriter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1655
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 05:41 pm: | |
A friend of mine pointed out a sure fire way to end the "Islamic terrorism". Take the body of scraps of bodies of the terrorists and sew them inside a pig carcass then bury the pig. Seems if you are defiled by a "pig" you don't get those virgins and heaven. If that was to be your fate, you would have second thoughts about suicide bombings.
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1078
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 07:47 pm: | |
I believe that General Pershing used that tactic in the Phippines in 1917. He executed some Islamic terrorists by firing squad and rubbed the bullets in pig blood before loading the rifles. The bodies were buried in a mass grave along with pig carcasses. One terrorist suspect was allowed to witness the excution and then set free so that he could tell his comrades what he saw.
There was not another act of terrorism in the Philippines for over 50 years. |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1079
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 07:57 pm: | |
I would define a terrorist as one who causes the death of an innocent person in the name of his cause.
Some years ago there was a party of people engaged in a perfectly legal activity. They were making their way through the forest on horseback when a terrorist jumped out from behind a tree and threw firecrackers at the hoofs of the horses. The animals panicked and threw the riders. One of the womaen struck her head on a rock and was killed.
At the trial, the terrorists lawyer rationalized the act by saying that the woman who was killed was hunting and his organization considered that an immoral activity so she died because of her own actions.
There is no doubt in my mind that the logic here is pure terrorist.
The organization was Greenpeace, in my mind a terrorist group through and through. |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
686
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 08:42 pm: | |
Greanpeace engages in civil disobedience while Al-Qaeda advocates wholesale slaughter of innocent women and children. The trouble with expanding the definition of terrorism to include civil disobedience and/or destruction of property is that it tends to dilute the enormity of the crime.
http://www.fdungan.com/bushwhacked.htm |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1081
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 08:55 pm: | |
I guess the line can be quite blurred at times. I just don't believe in killing even one innocent person in the name of your cause. Even a not so innocent person for that matter. You'll probably never encounter a more "right to life" person than me but I certainly can't condone killing the doctors who murder unborn children. |
Harry Simenon
Hsympothai Member
Post Number:
374
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 01:47 pm: | |
Bill:
“Note to Harry.
If one engages in a fight in a bar room, one will get one's butt kicked if one
tries to employ the Marquis of Queensbury rules. One must kick, bite, scratch,
strike with bottles and cue sticks in order to win.
The fight against OBL and his ilk is a bar room brawl.
It's idealistic to think otherwise.”
I look upon it like this:
If someone attacks you from behind and runs, do you think it is right to hit just about anyone who doesn’t belong to your friends? I have no problem with attacking terrorists, I do have a problem with attacking innocent people who happen to have the same religion or nationality as some terrorists.
For instance: the word “Palestines” is not a synonym for “terrorist.” Sure there are terrorists among the Palestines, but so are among our friends the Israelis. It is a question of justice. Friends are not always right because they are friends. I think a fight should be fought as decent as possible. If the enemy uses dirty tricks that might give you certain rights, but only if you aim that at the group that does so.
Things should also be in perspective: if someone (deliberately) spills your beer you might hit him maybe, but you shouldn’t shoot him.
Fred Dungan:
“I agree that there is no logic and that terrorists don't follow the rules. That's why I support using overwhelming force. It's too late for anything else.”
But at whom would you aim such overwhelming force? The terrorists do not walk arount with a sign “terrorist” on them, nor do they gather in a bunker to wait for you.
Dennis Collins:
“I would define a terrorist as one who causes the death of an innocent person in the name of his cause.”
I would like to add one word: “(...) one who DELIBERATLY causes the death of an innocent person (...)” And although this specific Greenpeace action was a stupid and dangerous thing to do, I can’t imagine that they planned to kill this woman.
It is clear that the way terrorists try to solve their problems is pretty useless in the long run. Torturing children will not likely generate sympathy for any cause. That makes me wonder what keeps terrorism going. I find it hard to believe that it is only misplaced idealism. |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1083
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 06:34 pm: | |
Harry
I never said that Greenpeace set out to kill anybody. I said that their attorney tried to rationalize the act in court by implying that her life was less important than his cause.
Somehow, I don't think that her children agreed. |
Fred Dungan
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
689
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 09:43 am: | |
Dennis,
How did the trial turn out? My guess is that the attorney's specious argument did not do his client's case any good.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1085
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 10:41 am: | |
The case was tried somewhere in Canada and the defendant was convicted of something but I'm not sure what the exact charge was. |
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