| Author |
Message |
    
Richard Lee Fulgham, MA
Awareness Member
Post Number:
5
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 12:44 pm: |   |
Here's something to think about. It's got me intrigued. Author Anne Rice has written dozens of books about a vampire named LeStat who is aware of the good and evil he does.
He is asolutely decadent and luxuriates in affluence -- velvet shirts, best wines, trophy women, exotic cars, mansions -- even has his nails done.
So in "Blood Canticle", Anne's latest book, LeStat is so egotiscal and self-obsessed that the REALLY believes he can become a Saint. He imagines himself talking to the Pope in the first few pages. He claims the people whose blood he drinks are evil, thus he is good.
Plus, he is indulgent because he can do more good because it brings him into contact with rich evil people and female gold diggers, etc. Ms. Rice herself speaks of "the Saints of Affluence". Can a vampire become a saint? I have strong opinions but for now will wait till I hear from you who find this interesting. Can killing be a good thing? Is Anne Rice a philosopher? A good one? (I think she's terrific, myself.) But I hold my opinion about whether or not a vampire can become a saint. My email is rlfulgham@writers.net . THIS IS NOT ONE OF MY JOKES!
Richard Lee Fulgham, MA
http:www.lulu.com/LION |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
3588
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 02:56 pm: | |
Well Richard, I am not Catholic and know very little about sainthood. But just taking a wild stab at the subject, I would think that in the purest form of the word, LeStat would not be qualified for sainthood.
LeStat may be a charismatic character, an intelligent deep thinker. But like many non vampires populating our world. he justifies his actions to legitimize himself. Sort of like politicians who try to justify cutting education and health care benefits - due to budgetary constraints - while sending billions overseas and giving themselves big raises.
I think LeStat might be deluded into thinking himself a saint, but most would disagree.
Laurel Johnson
Author: The Grass Dance
The Alley of Wishes
Color of Laughter, Color of Tears
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Diana Hignutt
Wandering Member
Post Number:
239
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 04:36 am: | |
I haven't finished all the Vampire books by Ms. Rice yet, but I am enthusiastically reading them. Lestat has a leg up on a few people for the sainthood position, afterall in Memnoch the Devil, he talked at length with the Devil, visited Hell, Limbo, Heaven, watched the Crucifixtion and brought back a holy relic from his travels. After that book he repented his sins, but was consumed by madness. Hmmm... (then, I jumped over to the Mayfair witches, so I should probably read more before commenting further).
I'm not Catholic, so I'm not sure of the official qualifications for sainthood, though, I suspect being human is probably one of them, so our friend Lestat loses a few points there...
Interesting question...
Diana |
Steven Shrewsbury
Unity Member
Post Number:
1115
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 06:01 am: | |
SIGH.
I am not Catholic either, but c'mon.
And if he is made a saint, big f&^king deal. Only Roman Catholics (the proper term) get hung up on all that saint stuff. Protestants believe we are all saints once we get to Heaven.
So Nyah, nyah, NYAH, ANNE!!!!!
Gosh all hemlock, will she now pursue me because I pointed out a flaw in her logic?
Like her attitude should be, I could give a flyin' f&^k at a rolling tire about...
www.stevenshrewsbury.com
I walk the line |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1199
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 07:49 am: | |
The other point of view...
I am a Roman Catholic and as I understand my religion, it says that everybody in heaven is a saint.
I think that the misunderstanding occurs when we canonize a saint, which only means that we are 100% sure that this particular person actually made it all the way there. And we don't worship saints, we recognize and honor their goodness and sometimes ask for their intercession but that's about it.
Are all saints Catholic? Of course! Everybody knows that we're the only ones that will ever get to heaven, right? |
Jennifer Lynn
Unity Member
Post Number:
1593
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 09:33 am: | |
Sticking with the topic heading here... Can LeState become a saint? Of course he can't--he's a ficional character. 
How's that for logic?? lol
Jenn
Jennifer Lynn
www.jenniferlynn.ca |
Steven Shrewsbury
Unity Member
Post Number:
1118
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 05:14 pm: | |
Good one, Jenn....
And BTW, every wedding I have ever attended in a Roman Catholic church, they say prayers to Mary, ask Mary to do things, put roses at her FEET during the ceremony...maybe I am mistaking adoration for worship? Looks like worship when you are asking dead folks to do things for you. I recall the Angel in Revelation telling John NOT to worship anyone but God.
Just a note, this was never done in the church for centuries (praying to saints etc). I won't even get into the adaption of the mother/child cult to get more pagans in the church deal...
www.stevenshrewsbury.com
I walk the line |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1206
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 06:06 pm: | |
Yeah, the church doesn't do a very good job of making things clear to everybody but it's there. It's that intercession thing I mentioned earlier. If you've ever heard the "Hail Mary," the first half of the prayer is a greeting and the second half asks Mary to Pray for us, so you see it isn't worship, it's just asking someone who's already made it to put in a good word for us. |
Steven Shrewsbury
Unity Member
Post Number:
1120
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 08:09 pm: | |
Yeah, but ya know they were trying to push through Mary as co-redeemer for a while...and if you are praying to anyone other than God...I think that is pretty wrong.
(there is a church in Israel where Mary is carved in the back of the cross mimicking Jesus)
Shrugs. The Mary obsession thing needs to be explained to me. In THE PASSION she was a co-star. Huh?
I loved my dad, but I really think that asking him to help the Bears win is beyond his powers...
www.stevenshrewsbury.com
I walk the line |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1207
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 05:57 am: | |
The Bears will be at Ford Field to play the Lions on Dec. 26 and I'll take all the help I can get no matter where it comes from. (Are you listening Daniel Webster?)
P.S. I wish they would have left Soldiers Field the way it was. It was the only "intimate" setting in the NFL. |
Steven Shrewsbury
Unity Member
Post Number:
1122
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 06:32 am: | |
Yeah, it looks like a UFO crashed into it...THE MISTAKE BY THE LAKE...
www.stevenshrewsbury.com
GODFORSAKEN
Behler Publications |
Bill Nelson
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
770
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 10:55 am: | |
Steve,
I think the Mary Connection is/was a sop to Goddess worship (Isis, Hekate, Vesta etc.) to drag pagans into "the Church". They did the same with holidays (Feast of Saturnalia for example). Sort of like Kerry championing the working class.
bn |
Diana Hignutt
Wandering Member
Post Number:
243
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 03:28 am: | |
You know, when I was in Chicago for the BEA, I got to see Soldier Field. Being a big NFL fan, I was excited. But, Steven is absolutely right...it looks like a UFO crashed right on top of this wonderful classical stadium. It really does look ridiculous.
Diana |
Steven Shrewsbury
Unity Member
Post Number:
1127
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 05:54 am: | |
We were at the museum when it was under construction...and that is about it in a nutshell 
www.stevenshrewsbury.com
GODFORSAKEN
Behler Publications |
Mike Manno
Awareness Member
Post Number:
3
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 12:16 pm: | |
Hello all,
I am a Catholic and perhaps I can explain some of the beliefs that have been discussed here.
First, Dennis is correct. Anyone in Heaven is a saint. What is confusing to some is the Catholic belief in Purgatory. Under Catholic doctrine, Purgatory is a place of purfication where the souls of the "saved" go to be made pure before they can enter Heaven (Mt 5:48). Thus, the deceased, while not deserving of Hell, may not go directly to heaven, but wait through a period of purification in Purgatory. That is why Catholics pray for the dead, obviously prayers are unneeded for anyone already in Heaven and usless for anyone in Hell (2Mac 12:44-46). So the process of declaring a person a saint involves a declaration that the person is not still in Purgatory. I often hear news people talking about the Church "promoting" someone to sainthood. That is not true. The Church doesn't promote, but recognizes what God had done. The test the Church uses to determine if a person is a saint is rather involved but it does require several miracles attributed to the candidate. The purpose of doing all this is to hold the saint out as an example of how to live one's life. In otherwords, it does more for us than it does for the saint. Also remember that not all saints are so declared by the Church.
As to praying to saints: A prayer can be an act of worship or an act of communication. The word prayer has a rather broad meaning. For example, when I, as an attorney, make a plea to a court it is called a "prayer for relief." In that same vein, Catholics look to prayer as including requests for relief. Thus, when we pray to Mary or a saint what we are really doing is asking that person to assist us with our requests to God. It is really no differnet than your friend or minister asking you to pray for an ill person -- the request to you is the same as a request of a saint. The difference, of course, is that the saint is much closer to God and may know how to approach Him better than you do. As an example, you can go into court and ask the judge to give you a judgment, but you are better off if you do it through an attorney who knows the ropes a little better than you do.
And, now Mary "worship." Catholics do not worship Mary. Some people, however, have gone overboard and hold her as some type of goddess. That is a corruption of Catholic teaching. But, we do hold that Mary is the most important of all persons who have ever lived because she was chosen by God to give birth to Jesus. She therefore has the highest human position in Heaven, but she is still human, not a goddess. We pray to her for the same reason we pray to saints or ask others to pray for us. We just happen to believe that Jesus tends to pay a lot of attention to his mother.
While we are on the subject of mother, I'd like to talk real quick about the term "Mother of God." That term was assigned to Mary by the Church to counter a heresy around the second century that denied the divinity of Jesus. The Church's position is that Jesus is and was always divine. The term the Church applied to Mary was a Greek term "Theotokos" meaning "God bearer." That became translated as Mother of God, since a mother bears her child. It doesn't mean that Mary is actually God's mother, but that Christ was divine. It speaks to the divinity of Jesus more than it says anything about Mary herself.
Anyway, I'm not a theologian by any means, but I hope this explains some of the beliefs that were questioned here. There are a lot of good books out there that explain the Catholic faith (as well as other faiths). Anyone really interested should pick up one. I think it is important that we all know as much about each other's beliefs as possible since that promotes a better understand among men, which is in the best Christian tradition.
Mike |
Bill Nelson
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
773
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 01:59 pm: | |
Mike,
Without appearing too cynical it also suggest that God is cantankerous old fart who may or may not grant your pleas (by any name) and can be swayed in his decision (like a human being). Do you suppose the one and only God Almighty is really like that?
bn |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2045
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 05:26 pm: | |
What I really want to know is whether Aston can become a certified astronaut...
Mindsight Moderator
Check out Who Needs a Hero?
|
Mike Manno
Awareness Member
Post Number:
4
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 05:39 pm: | |
Hi Bill,
No, I don't see Him as a cantankerous old fart. Seems to me one of the lessons of the Bible is to ASK! Jesus tells several stories about people who continue to ask and ask until their requests are answered. Remember the man who knocks on his neighbor's door for bread and finally gets what he wants because the neighbor is tired of hearing him knock in the middle of the night, or the old woman who finally gets her just judgement from the unjust judge who she kept bothering until she got what she wanted? And remember from the Old Testament the story of Abraham who "bargins" with God over how many just men are necessary to save Sodom? God wants 50 and Abraham gets him down to 10. The lesson is to ASK, and if someone else asking for you will help, then go for it. Like I say, I'm not a theologian, so I suspect someone else will be better able to answer these questions. But to me its like when I was a kid and I wanted to ask my dad for something. If it was a close question and my brother wanted it too, that helped. And if my mother was on board, so much the better. Anyway, "be like little children..." Interesting discussion, I'll have to bone up on my catechism in case there are other questions.
Mike |
Bill Nelson
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
776
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 06:14 pm: | |
If Lestat can become a rock star, anything is possible.Diana mentioned the Mayfair witches. I thought the first two of that series were outstanding. Shortly after I read the Witching Hour, I was in New Orleans and went down to the Garden district where they lived. The black oaks hanging over the streets, the quaint houses with their tempting little courtyards were just too much. I could almost see the Mayfairs dashing hither and yon.
Richard, I think Anne Rice is the only one who can confer Sainthood on Lestat. I doubt the Catholic Church is going to.
bn |
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