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Pacwriter
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Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 07:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Around 1995, everybody and his brother was writing a book. Ten years later a lot of those folks tossed their computers out the window. Frustration set in as their books remained locked on hard drives.

so are there less writers today than ten years ago?
If so, are there too many writers?

Are we awash with new ways to publish and Mom & Pop publishing ventures poping up all over?
http://www.perrycomer.com
http://throughablindeye.blogspot.com/
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Bill Nelson
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Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 07:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Of course.That's why the editors are in such pissy moods. They get buried in junk every day, week after week.
How man PA's are out there?
Compared to other times, it is easy to get a book published; not so easy to get it publicized, but the market is deluged.
That's why everyone gets so many form rejections. They don't read most of them.
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Gloria Marlow
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Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 08:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

There are too many people becoming authors based on things other than talent. I have no doubt that some celebrities have writing ability/talent, but I think most of them are published regardless, simply because their names will sell. There are numerous children's books by celebrities right now. I find it hard to believe that the average new author's manuscript got the kind of attention theirs did, or the chance to be published. I know that publishing is a business, but it seemed to be holding its own before the influx of celebrity writers and I tend to think it would have continued to do so.

I think there is always room for new writers. I get tired of reading the same people all the time. There are some I will always read and some that I used to read everything they wrote and have now grown tired of. Sometimes, I want to try something new. It's refreshing to read something with a new voice if it's good. Writers come and go, just like actors and singers. They have popularity for a while, then they fade away. Some continue to write and their loyal readers still buy their new books and new readers find their old books and they continue to be read. Others simply fade away after a while, or go to new pen names, new genres. This makes room for new voices, new writers. This is good. I think readers' choices change. Sometimes, I will want only suspense novels, sometimes only romance, sometimes only historical settings, others modern settings. So, there is room for a whole lot of writers and styles and books in this world.

Yes, I have begun to see that there are too many mom and pop operations in the publishing business. Everywhere I look there is another one. Most of the new publishers I have come into contact with or read about lately are honest and upfront about the fact that they charge authors to be published. The ones that don't charge are few and far between, and they all struggle with the same issues -- distribution, marketing, acceptance, etc.

I am amazed by the sheer number of people paying to have their books published. I wonder if this is going to become an accepted way of publication eventually. Most of those will never see the shelves of a bookstore. And some of them probably should. The problem is that these kinds of publishers make it that much harder for the small indepedent non-vanity publishers to be accepted because the books tend to look the same, etc.

These are just some of my own observations in the last few years.

Gloria
Gloria Davidson Marlow

**The Butterfly Game***Shades of Silence***Flowers for Megan**
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Dennis Collins
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Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 03:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

This may be just another reason to consider attending writer's conferences. Many conferences feature one-on-one interviews between authors and agents.

The logic is that people who attend conferences are usually more knowledgeable in the craft of writing and more importantly they have paid close to $200 of their own money just to be there. It tells the agent that they are serious about their writing and if they show up with a professionally edited manuscript it leapfrogs them light years ahead of the muddled crowd.

The general comment that I've heard is that agents expect to find more quality manuscripts at conferences. More and more literary agents are leaning toward conferences as their best screening tool.
Dennis Collins
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www.theunrealmccoy.com
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Pacwriter
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Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 05:48 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

So are the days of the query numbered? Is it coming down to conferences with one on one, face to face rejections?
http://www.perrycomer.com
http://throughablindeye.blogspot.com/
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Gloria Marlow
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Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 05:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I would prefer a rejection that takes a weekend to get than a rejection that takes 6 months to a year to get.

Gloria
Gloria Davidson Marlow

**The Butterfly Game***Shades of Silence***Flowers for Megan**
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Stephen Lodge
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Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 06:13 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"The logic is that people who attend conferences are usually more knowledgeable in the craft of writing and more importantly they have paid close to $200 of their own money just to be there."

True logic is that a writer who is confident about his work doesn't go to these "conferences." Of all the "successful" writers I know, I have never known one to attend these (my term) rip-offs.
http://stephenlodge.com
Novels by Stephen Lodge:
"Charley Sunday's Texas Outfit!"
"Nickel-Plated Dream"
"Shadows of Eagles"
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Pacwriter
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Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 07:00 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

which begs the questions, "Who benefits from the conferences?"

For the non-published and hopeful writer it would seem the conference is a good investment. For the published, agented, writer the conference is of no value.
http://www.perrycomer.com
http://throughablindeye.blogspot.com/
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Dennis Collins
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Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 07:45 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have attended conferences with Sue Grafton, Michael Connelly, Mickey Spillane, and Max Allen Collins. I'd hardly consider any of these folks as unknowns.

The information that I posted about the agent's views was information that I got sitting at a panel discussion made up exclusively of high powered New York agents.
Dennis Collins
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Sean D. Schaffer
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Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I do not think there are too many writers. I think there are too many writers who do not know what they are doing.

I also think there are too many writers out there who do not know the meaning of "Publisher's Guidelines".
http://seandschaffer.blogspot.com/
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Stephen Lodge
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Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

If you think it's bad in the publishing world, go see what's happening in the film world - literally billions who think they can write a script. This all began, you realize, when our educators started teaching kids they could be anything they wanted to be. They just never bothered to mention one thing: a writer needs to learn their craft, or else be born very talented.
http://stephenlodge.com
Novels by Stephen Lodge:
"Charley Sunday's Texas Outfit!"
"Nickel-Plated Dream"
"Shadows of Eagles"
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Bill Nelson
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Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dennis,
This is a serious question.
Of all the money you have spent on conferences, and the "names" you have met, has it enhanced your writing career? If yes, explain, please.
What if you had invested that same amount of money in advertising
your books in other venues? How would the results compare?
I'm sure it's nice to say, "I met Sue Grafton!", but I'll venture Sue doesn't remember you.
I've been to only two conferences (total of nearly $1000.00 in air fare, hotel, food, etc.) and got zip! Maybe that's my fault.
You seem to be high on them. Why?
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Todd Hunter
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Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 04:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have attended conferences with Sue Grafton, Michael Connelly, Mickey Spillane, and Max Allen Collins. I'd hardly consider any of these folks as unknowns.

Just for my own curiosity, did they pay to attend or were they brought to the conference at the expense of the organizers?
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Blog
Midwestern Writer
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Dennis Collins
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Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 05:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'm sure that keynote speakers at conferences are not required to pay the registration fee but I can state that they generally participate just like all other attendees. Best selling author Harlan Coban sat on a panel with Michael Ball and I've shared panels with Judith Guest.

I have over one hundred rejection letters that decline my work based on my query letters without ever reading a single word of the manuscript. From the contacts I've made at conferences I've been invited to submit my full manuscript to at least seven agents or editors. I've had one offer of publication that I had to turn down. I've gotten way closer through my conference efforts than any other way.

In order to get the maximum benefit from any conference you have to participate in discussion panels. This is usually done at pre-registration when you fill out the form and ask to serve on a panel.

At a conference a couple of years ago I struck up a conversation with Joe Konrath (Whiskey Sour, Bloody Mary) and he agreed to read both of my books. He liked The Unreal McCoy but he loved Turn Left at September and introduced me to the agent who negotiated a six figure advance for him. The agent turned me down but she said that she might be interested in some of my future work.

I guess that I've just gotten a whole lot closer to the right people at conferences.
Dennis Collins
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www.theunrealmccoy.com
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Frederick A. Babb
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Posted on Wednesday, September 13, 2006 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

If I may, may I add my two cents?

Too many writers can never exist. Too many people who want to be writers can. Writing, like painting, dancing, singing, etc. is an art to a certain degree. Everyone can write a sentence, but it takes a special talent that some have to write a story. And, like painting, dancing, singing, etc. need classes, time and opportunity to grow, so does one's ability to write.

Unfortunately, there are too many out there that write and go to less than desirable publishers (to keep the subject on writers and not on the publishers) who will publish. Then, the work published...while not really quality, is used to carry the title of "published author" by the one who got published. But, does being published really make a person a writer? No. A writer, like the people here, are the ones that have talent, go the distance, and have the ability to be more than a "one hit" wonder by a less than desirable publisher. They are the ones willing to take the time for the rejection slips, learn from the reviews they recieve and spend their time writing and improving their skills rather than hawking a book to the attendees of a family bar-b-que.
Preview books: http://www.frederickbabb.bravehost.com
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Fred Dungan
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Once the children grow up and move away, the "side of beef" barbecues are few and far between. Besides which, your family expects you to give them a book. As usual, PublishAmerica got it wrong.

I write because it comes out of me. It's not that different from going to the bathroom. For writers like myself, it's just another bodily function.

9/11 Vigilantes http://www.dunganbooks.com
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Bill Nelson
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 01:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey, Fred...
Good to see you, bud. That was a hell of a long nap!
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Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 04:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Fred,
Thank you!!! and welcome back.
Claudia
MINDSIGHT MODERATOR

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Laurel Johnson
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Posted on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 - 09:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

You hit that nail on the head, Fred. I give away far more books than I sell.

It's good to see you, old friend.
Laurel Johnson
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Joyce Scarbrough
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Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 01:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey, Fred!! I'm so glad you're back!

~Joyce Sterling Scarbrough
True Blue Forever
ISBN 0-9722385-9-X
Different Roads
ISBN 0-9722385-3-0
Authors Ink Books
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com

Read the first chapters at http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
Waste time on Joyce's Blog at http://joycescarbrough.blogspot.com

Senior Editor
Champagne Books
http://www.champagnebooks.com
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Dennis Collins
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Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 03:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey Fred...

I've really missed you.
Dennis Collins
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www.theunrealmccoy.com
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Stephen Lodge
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Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 04:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good to see you're back, Fred ~
http://stephenlodge.com
Novels by Stephen Lodge:
"Charley Sunday's Texas Outfit!"
"Nickel-Plated Dream"
"Shadows of Eagles"
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Frederick A. Babb
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Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well thanks....oh...you were talking about the other Fred. Good to see you back Fred.
Preview books: http://www.frederickbabb.bravehost.com
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Ed (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, October 01, 2006 - 07:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"I have over one hundred rejection letters that decline my work based on my query letters without ever reading a single word of the manuscript."

Then you can't write a query. No requests for partials? Rework it, but then if you're querying already "published" work it's a waste of time. I'd bet that's what's going on here. 100 without a request is rare.

As for attending author panels at book festivals, which are free even in LA, they're nice but meeting an author is strictly a fan thing and of no value to a writing career. Other than you get to hear all the crap they went though. I met so and so means you're just another faceless fan.
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Dennis Collins
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Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 08:20 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Mark. Hope you're doing well. Any new success with your writing endeavors? Tell us what's been going on in your life.

You are 100% correct about the query letter. How you gonna know if they like your manuscript if you can't get past the query? My problem was that my query followed the "Writer's Digest" template to the letter. It was a sterile and vanilla form letter that opened with the same line that every other Writer's Digest guided query did. When I changed my opening line to, "The trouble with instant gratification is that it takes too long." I began to generate some interest. I eventually sold the manuscript but not through a New York agent.

The conferences that I attend are generally teaching conferences with sessions covering everything from the craft of writing to the business of getting published to managing your taxes. And if you want any impact out of "meeting" an author you need to go much farther than a nodding acquaintance. You need to get to know them on a personal level and develop a working relationship. Sooner or later one of your connections will make an introduction or recommendation that could open some doors ar perhaps even give you a referral.

The plan for my current manuscript is already in motion. I have had a couple of successful authors and two reviewers read it and make recommendations. I've done some rework based on their advice. The next step is to send it off to a professional editor and then start shopping it around. My main efforts will be aimed at the one-on-one interviews with major agents that I will schedule at conferences.

Good luck with your work.
Dennis Collins
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www.theunrealmccoy.com
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Ervin E. Harmon
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Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 07:47 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

""so are there less writers today than ten years ago?"
"If so, are there too many writers?"

My guess is there is more writers today than there was ten years ago. I don't believe there is too many writers and if there was who would quit and who would continue writing.

I see the problem as being that there is too many writers that do not know what to do after their book is written such as write a query letter that will get their book accepted by a good publisher, how to promote their book/books and the many other things that has to be done. I do not say this in a negative way I say it because I feel that it is true.

Many of the self published authors do not get their books into book stores so the authors of those books ends up with a book that seldom get read by many people and does not sell many copies. Occasionally some authors end up getting a publisher that only adds to the frustration of publishing their book and if it does make it through the publishing process they may end up with a poor quality book or what few copies do get sold the author has trouble collecting their royalties from the publisher.

I believe that quite often some authors feel that all they have to do is write a great book and so they write the great book only to find out that writing that great book is only part of the process. I have read many books on writing but have never read a book that was very helpful as far as what an author should do once their great book is written. A few things become obvious such as the author, if they self published, has to promote their book otherwise it can set on Amazon and a few other places and sell very few copies. The authors need to get a few reviews done on their book/books but if they do not promote their book no one will see it anyway. Maybe an agent is needed, wow, here is anther problem and how much do they charge and can one afford one if they self publish?

I am a writers assistant for C. Gale Perkins who is now working on her third book. I know Gale loves being an author and writing so I can understand an authors love for writing.

I am convinced that in a few years self publishing will be vastly improved and many others will find out about the great self published books that I have been reading. I even look forward to the day that self published book authors will be able to do a book signing in Barnes&Noble.

http://www.ervsbookreviews.com/ervsbookadvertiser/
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Pacwriter
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 08:33 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Fred wrote
I write because it comes out of me. It's not that different from going to the bathroom. For writers like myself, it's just another bodily function.


So why don't we quit - because we can't


Science is lately on the kick that we are 'hard-wired' to do certain things. For those who write, the explanation is that we are 'hard-wired' - the writing is as much a part of us as breathing.

If we couldn't write, we would scream instead. Maybe it is the child wanting attention!
http://www.perrycomer.com

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Bill Nelson
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 09:54 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I feel like I am a writer by nature.
In society, I am not a successful writer. I may not be a very good writer,
but I write because it's what I do.

I've seen some (IMO) who are destroyed by their failure to be picked up by a big house. I think those folks are looking more for celebrity than being good writers. It would be wonderful (probably)to be a best-selling author, but is that truly the mark of success? Maybe monetary success, but writing success?
Maybe I'm rationalizing, but I don't think so. I believe those who write with the story in mind, rather than who's going to publish it, are true writers.
The other's (spawned by PA and the like) are looking for fame where ever they can get it.
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Harry Simenon
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I agree with you Bill, which is a very scary experiance to me.

I write because I love to write. My goal is to write as well as possible and keep enjoying it.

Surely it would be great to be published, but I certainly will not stop writing if I never will, and definitly not commit suicide out of disapointment.

I do hope it will be read one day, so perhaps when I give up looking for a publisher I might just chuck it on the internet so everybody who wants can read it.


I think that a true writer writes about what he or she want's to tell, and a fake writer is someone that writes what he/she expect might sell, often copycats of what is popular at the moment. Sometimes the fake writers are published more.
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Dennis Collins
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Bill... Is there a difference between fame and recognition? I could go even further and question the source of that recognition. From critics? Peers? The literary community? General public? Personally I don't give any one group more weight than any other.

I don't ever expect to get rich by writing although it would be nice to make a living wage. But I'd definitely like to hear somebody say that reading my work brought a degree of pleasure to their life.

My books are pure fiction, stories picked out of God's blue sky with no intended message unless it's to show that good will triumph over evil. My work is entertainment plain and simple.

But it's from my soul.
Dennis Collins
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Bill Nelson
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sure, we all want recognition in our lives. It validates us as a viable person.
But, if one requires validation, he is insecure in his self-worth.
Validation is an ego thing (and we all have one).
The real or legitimate writer gets his validation in knowing he has done a good job. So does a carpenter, an artist, a parent. If someone else wants to add to
that validation, that's a bonus, but if one NEEDS exterior validation it
indicates an insecure self-image.
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Pacwriter
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

validation for a writer is like validation for a researcher. It is only when the results are published and examined by peers that validation has consequence. Critics are often viewed as the enemy and merely those who comment without the ability to create. They do serve a necessary function in that they too provide validation. Imagine American Idol without Simon.
http://www.perrycomer.com

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Dennis Collins
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Do you see the word "need" in my post?
Dennis Collins
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Bill Nelson
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Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 01:57 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I wasn't referring to you as an individual. At ease.
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Fred Dungan
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Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 01:36 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

For those of us who are in this for the long haul, credibility and craftsmanship are everything. Produce a superior book and it will still be around when books that achieve sales by means of leverage and promotion are long gone.

http://www.fdungan.com/duke.htm Chasing Loose Nukes by Colonel Derek L. Duke -- abandoned WMD are everywhere. The Gregg family has a loose nuke buried in their garden. Odds are there is an abandoned thermonuclear weapon in your neighborhood.
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Joyce Scarbrough
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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ah, but even the most arrogant of us needs validation from time to time. I have no self-esteem problems other than having too much. Still, after extended periods of rejection by publishers and agents, books that languish in relative obscurity because my publisher doesn't have a million-dollar promotional budget while crap gets published by the big guys and then rammed down our throats everywhere as being fine art, even I start to wonder if I'm not deluding myself and wasting time. This is why I was glad this morning that I hadn't given up on reading posts at Mike's Writing Workshop as I'd considered doing because of the enormous volume of posts there and the time constraints it puts on me.

Someone posted a first paragraph that prompted them to buy the book immediately. As expected in a group with 8000+ members such as Mike's, the paragraph was alternately praised and trashed. I didn't post anything, as it neither wowed me nor bored me. I opened a rather long post in the thread this morning by a lady named Joleena Thomas. I kept reading after the first few paragraphs because she obviously knew about writing in general and wrote clearly and eloquently. About five paragraphs in, she said this:

"Recently, I read a preview chapter for Joyce Scarborough' s book: Different Roads. I was amazed at how she was able to cleverly insert just the right amount of description, dialogue and character back story, yet still plunge the reader into what feels like the middle of the story, and she did all of this in under 4,000 words.

Each paragraph is like a mini event serving its own purpose. Nothing is extraneous."

I have no idea who this lady is, and I don't know what prompted her to check out DIFFERENT ROADS. But I literally gasped when I read these comments, then I sat here and cried like an idiot because a total stranger appreciated all the hard work and countless hours I spent on introducing my complicated heroine within the rules of good writing. And that she recognizes how much I hate unnecessary words and meaningless fluff, and that she gets the subtle insight I used to show my heroine's reasons for being the way she is tells me my instincts are right.

You know what? I'm NOT wrong when I compare my books to some NYT bestsellers and know mine are better. I don't know why the New York editors and agents I've submitted to haven't been able to see it yet, but I'm not giving up until they do. And not because I want to be rich or famous. It's because I want my books read by millions of people. I want them to talk about my characters as if they were real people. I don't even care if they hate them or love them as long as they feel something for them.

I guess I'll keep at this little writing hobby awhile longer.

~Joyce Sterling Scarbrough
True Blue Forever
ISBN 0-9722385-9-X
Different Roads
ISBN 0-9722385-3-0
Authors Ink Books
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com

Read the first chapters: http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
Waste time on Joyce's Blog: http://joycescarbrough.blogspot.com
Watch the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztz5e3XZeo
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Stephen Lodge
Hsympothai Member
Post Number: 481
Registered: 06-2004


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Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 03:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"I've submitted to haven't been able to see it yet, but I'm not giving up until they do"

In talking to a few of my Western Writers of America buddies, I've discovered the "biggies" will publish just about anything by someone with a name, and to hell with whether they're a good writer. In other words: for the big publishers, celebrity sells novels, not good writing.
http://www.stephenlodge.com
Novels by Stephen Lodge:
"Charley Sunday's Texas Outfit!"
"Nickel-Plated Dream"
"Shadows of Eagles"
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