| Author |
Message |
    
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1979
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 11:59 pm: |   |
Are we as writers judged on the basis of merit or is something else at work? When we write something of value, something with worth, something that other people would like to read, is the manuscript we submit taken seriously or is it given short shrift and rejected without ever being read? The sad fact is that those of us who do not have an agent, those of us who are without corporate sponsorship, and those of us who are new at the game are not even permitted to submit a manuscript to a major publishing house. They feel so comfortable in their dominance that they no longer see a need to maintain appearances. The slush piles have vanished. If you are without influence, it doesn't matter how good you write or what you write because the corporate commissars are going to make certain that the public never gets a chance to read it.
J'accuse Random House, Simon & Schuster, St. Martin's, and all of the major North American publishing houses of failing to do their jobs properly. They have a responsibility to provide the readers and consumers who purchase their books with the best reading material they can get. But they don't know what is out there because they have grown soft, lazy, and no longer bother to do the work themselves. Today's editors depend on schmooze to get by. I doubt that some of them even like to read. Agents tell them what is available and they pick what they want from a limited menu and then feed it to the public whether they want it or not. Don't want to read If I Did It by O.J. Simpson? Well, that's just too bad because that's what the book club is sending you and it's either that or nothing. Bon appetit!
http://www.fdungan.com/freedom.htm |
Frank Mazur
Wandering Member
Post Number:
196
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 06:02 am: | |
I think one of the articles in this morning's online Times relates, albeit along another direction, to Fred's comments. It's about books discounting versus no discounting across the board at all stores. The country under discussion is Germany with the threat coming from the Swiss. Here's one quote from the piece: "Peter Molder, a literary agent from Cologne, added: “We’re used to the government supporting cultural programs. In America, it’s about private wealth. Here the question is what the public can do for culture.”
The link is...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/24/arts/24book.html?_r=1&oref=slogin |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1980
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 01:36 pm: | |
Wouldn't it be nice if we could put the blame on capitalism and/or greed? But in this case the exact opposite is true. The profit motive encourages individuals to do their jobs properly. However, what we have here is a situation in which a cunning consortium of large publishing houses have eliminated the competition and can do pretty much what they want to do.
Here is how it works: literary agents who specialize in fiction choose to represent writers who are (a) prolific and (b) compliant. Quality of material and what the public wants to read are secondary considerations.
You either write what the corporate commissars want you to write or you don't have a job. Do it their way or you won't be doing it at all. Welcome to corporate socialism. This is the age of social engineering. The corporate commissars know what is best for you and best for the public. Sure, they are arrogant beyond belief, but there really isn't anything you can do about it, now is there?
http://www.fdungan.com/freedom.htm |
Joyce Scarbrough
Unity Member
Post Number:
1151
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 06:56 am: | |
Fred, I agree with you completely. I just don't have any idea of what we can do about it, other than writing a breakout POD book that makes us famous then speaking publicly about the unfairness of the publishing industry. Trust me, I'm always trying to do just that.
I went back to your Web site and was reminded of just how great a writer you are. If you get there before me, save me a seat.
~Joyce Sterling Scarbrough
True Blue Forever
ISBN 0-9722385-9-X
Different Roads
ISBN 0-9722385-3-0
Authors Ink Books
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com
Read the first chapters: http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
Waste time on Joyce's Blog: http://joycescarbrough.blogspot.com
Watch the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztz5e3XZeo |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1982
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:16 pm: | |
Our first concern is to earn a living. Shame on Time-Warner, shame on Simon & Schuster, shame on Random House. Eliminating the slush piles which constituted the last vestige of hope for honest, hard working writers was the last straw, the final touch in dehumanization. May they reap what they sow.
http://www.fdungan.com/freedom.htm
|
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1983
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 11:11 pm: | |
"I just don't have any idea of what we can do about it . . ."
We can encourage the publishing industry to be responsible. A good first step would be for them to acknowledge the enormous contribution which novice and freelance writers have made to literature. The next step, of course, would be for publishers to adopt ethical policies designed to develop, encourage, and support writers. Canada set about doing this by government regulation. I would much prefer to have it done in the United States by industry self-policing as it is very much in their self-interest to do so.
http://www.fdungan.com/freedom.htm |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1687
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 02:18 am: | |
Over here most publishers still work with slushpiles, so writers still have some kind of a chance.
But indeed many big publishers do not take any risks and publish mainstream riskless crap.
Unfortunatly we also have the PA kind of publishers...
Perhaps one day POD will be what sites like Youtube are for music. I have noticed that several musicians made it by recording their songs in their bedroom, posting it at youtube and get instant fame completely without the music industry.
That is actually a great development: straight from the creater to the people who want it, cutting all the nitwits in the middle.
I would not want to cut an editor though... |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3697
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 05:56 am: | |
But YouTube also contains the worst of the worst...
In order for selling POD to have the limited success that some have had with music on YouTube, people would have to give their books away for free (and have the manuscript so easy to read, it could be read in five minutes... :-D ).
In fact, you can do that today...with Lulu.com.
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Blog |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1689
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 10:55 am: | |
But the worst of the worst on Youtube will get nowhere...
Perhaps giving your manuscript away could get you into business? But I think a proper E-reader is needed first, and then many writers will get a chance again. |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1985
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 12:45 am: | |
The standards are in place. In order to be recognized as a real writer, you must be published by a big name publishing house. However, in their infinite wisdom, the corporate commissars have judged us not to be worthy of that honor. And they were able to make their determination without ever reading our work. To them, writers without agents are Scheiße.
There is no hope, there can be no appeal. You dare not darken their doorway with your presence. Go away and don't come back.
http://www.fdungan.com/freedom.htm |
Harry Simenon
Unity Member
Post Number:
1691
Registered: 10-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 03:46 am: | |
The publishers can think what they like; I think the future will be the readers themselves.
Once there are proper E-readers (E-ink,) investments will be very small, so becomming a known reader will depend more on the tast of the readers. That still doesn't mean that all great works will be read though, but the publishers will be cut out of the chain. |
Frank Mazur
Wandering Member
Post Number:
202
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 05:52 am: | |
Fred wrote: "The standards are in place. In order to be recognized as a real writer, you must be published by a big name publishing house."
Now that's just bullshit! |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3698
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 05:52 am: | |
If you sell a ton of books through a small publisher, the big name publishing houses will take notice...and if they don't, at least the royalty checks will soothe the pain of not being recognized as a real writer.
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Blog |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
4481
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 05:04 pm: | |
I don't very often disagree with Fred, but do in this case. Yes, the literary "standards" may only recognize writers published by big name houses, but that does not prove anything to me. As a reviewer, I read many books published by big houses and small. Most of the "real writers" I admire and sometimes envy for their skill were not published by big name houses.
Six figure contracts and best selling status on the New York Times bestseller list does not necessarily a real writer make. Of course, that's just my opinion.
Laurel Johnson
http://laureljohnsonblogs.blogspot.com
|
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1986
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 06:06 pm: | |
And an excellent assessment it is, Laurel. Would be that it was the majority viewpoint. Rationalizing doesn't change anything.
Please understand that my job is to observe and interpret. Evidently I struck a nerve. For that I'm sorry.
When I went to church this morning, the wheelchair lift was out and despite the fact that I don't weigh much, nobody offered to carry me in. Maybe I have worn out my welcome. I used to think that "Gospel" meant telling the truth. Of late, I've began to wonder.
http://www.fdungan.com/freedom.htm |
Gloria Marlow
Unity Member
Post Number:
2040
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 06:49 pm: | |
Fred,
I know what you are saying, and I while I agree with everyone else that there are good, "real" writers that write for small publishers and even self-publish, I totally agree with what you are saying as well.
I have personally had a good experience with a small publisher, but even after writing four books, I would not in any way be considered a "real" writer by anyone in the big publishing houses, or by any company, agent, etc. that deals with those publishing companies.I don't doubt it and I don't deny it.
What is even more amazing to me is that there is a whole world of "writers" out there who turn their noses up at any author not published by the big wigs, they tout their own self-importance and knowledge as if they were some famous author themselves, and most of them have never submitted, published or possibly even written a single word. They are waiting for the world to beat their doors down and I suppose they are angry that hasn't happened and probably never will.
I think we each must find the way we can live with in lieu or in wait of being published by a big company (if that is our desire) and push ahead accordingly.
Fred, if you'd come to my church, we'd have carried you in.
Gloria
www.geocities.com/gloriadmarlow
http://youtube.com/user/gloriamarlow
Flowers for Megan**Shades of Silence**The Butterfly Game
|
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3699
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 07:10 pm: | |
Our church recently renovated our driveway so that those in wheelchairs could get dropped off at the door and roll right into the sanctuary.
With the average age of our congregation up in the mid-60s, it will get to be a necessary change in coming months.
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Blog |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1987
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 06:36 pm: | |
All new public buildings are required to have wheelchair access. Retrofitting older structures, however, can be difficult. Although it does not always work, at least our church went to the trouble to install a lift and I very much appreciate it.
http://www.fdungan.com/book.htm |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
4483
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 08:42 pm: | |
No, you didn't strike a nerve, Fred. I was just trying to speak my mind, what's left of it. Unfortunately, you are right. My opinion is in the minority and wields no power where it counts.
Laurel Johnson
http://laureljohnsonblogs.blogspot.com
|
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1992
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 11:45 pm: | |
Your opinion does count, Laurel. The main point I was trying to make is that the playing field is unfairly tilted in favor of the big name publishers who by and large control what will and what will not appear on bookshelves throughout the United States. Leveraged distribution has been declared illegal in most other industries, e.g. Microsoft has been prevented from bundling its software products. What, if any, good does the Ingram Book Group monopoly do for the consumer?
http://www.dunganbooks.com |
Frank Mazur
Wandering Member
Post Number:
221
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:32 am: | |
Rather than start a new thread, I'm posting this link to a story of a conservative publisher being sued by some of its conservative authors. The piece offers some enlightenment...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/books/07cons.html?_r=1&oref=slogin |
Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2870
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:00 am: | |
Enlightenment! There is no enlightenment here. Everybody has a hand in the
cookie jar and possesses a "hurray for me, to hell with you" attitude. Do unto others before they do it unto you!
What's new?
Meiners would be proud of these guys. |
Joyce Scarbrough
Unity Member
Post Number:
1173
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:56 am: | |
Scary stuff, Frank. We really can't trust anyone.
~Joyce Sterling Scarbrough
True Blue Forever
ISBN 0-9722385-9-X
Different Roads
ISBN 0-9722385-3-0
Authors Ink Books
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com
Read the first chapters: http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
Waste time on Joyce's Blog: http://joycescarbrough.blogspot.com
Watch the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztz5e3XZeo |
Steven Lee Harris
Awareness Member
Post Number:
34
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 03:46 pm: | |
Unfair, yes. Insane, without a doubt. However, like any industry, the publishers will reap their own rewards. An unfortunate fact, because the American public will be the ones to pay for their mistake. As it stands there is one mid-stream line of rhetoric being forced down our throats. There is no risk in producing this garbage, therefore there can be no reward for the reader.
As I said, it is not the first industry to suffer this plague, nor is the situation hopeless. (I can't believe I'm saying this) take into consideration Goerge Lucas or Gene Roddenberry. Big and small screen had long suffered from one script (they just changed the name for different shows). These two, like all of us here, fought tooth and nail to give a fresh breath into the industry.
In the end, the American people's hunger for something new and their (Gene and George)perserverance paid off. They made a name for themselves, and opened the door for a new generation of writers. Long and short a revolution cannot take place without a fight. If we are to revolutionize the industry, we must fight for what we believe to be right and just.
By the way, I am heavily medicated right now. If any of this doesn't make sense, please slap me and tell me to shut up. Thank you for your time. I'm going to take another pill now. |
Ervin E. Harmon
Awareness Member
Post Number:
30
Registered: 10-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 07:12 am: | |
Hi Fred:
This was a very interesting post. I had a little trouble reading your red type but it was still worth reading and I can appreciate your comments. Unfortunately
I don't see where there will be any changes from the present system in the near future. There is so many obstacles in a writers path to getting that great book written , promoted, and in every book store. I am thinking of getting ones book/books in Barnes & Noble so that the author can do a book signing there.
Also getting ones web-site up and running and put on search engines so that one gets many clicks on their web-site a day. Some web-sites get 1000 or more a day and some might be doing well to get 10 a day.
Some people redardless of how hard it appears still are able to get their books published by publishers using a Query letter system and it seems to work for them.
I don't have an answer, as to why , but I am sure that many of the people that have written on this post are closer to getting there than they realize.
Concentrating on how the present system works and working within that system appears to me as the quickest road to success because if one try's to change the system then they now have two tasks. 1. Accomplishing your goal which is to get your book published by a real publisher and 2. Changing the system.
Good luck Fred. Do I think you can do it? Yes and probably sooner than you think. You and many of the people on this post impress me.
The real answer is to not give up and keep striving for your goal.
http://www.ervharmon.com/selfpublishedpromotionvideos/ |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1998
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 11:26 pm: | |
As of last count by the domain server, omnis.com, my personal website, http://www.fdungan.com, was logging upwards of 15,000 hits per day. Add to that the daily hits on my business website, http://www.dunganbooks.com, plus mirror sites in the U.S. and Europe, and you might be fooled into thinking I am headed for the big time. No way. As far as the publishing industry is concerned, I am an antisocial dropout who plays by his own rules and won't go anywhere as long as Ingram can keep a death grip on distribution in North America.
Yes, the big guys set the parameters and the little guys do what they are told or else . . . . And if that doesn't make your blood boil, your creative juices aren't flowing. The first step in achieving change is to identify the problem. We all know the playing field is not level. In fact, it is tilted so far against authors like us that we aren't even allowed to play the game, i.e. the slush piles are a thing of the past and we are no longer accorded the courtesy of submitting our work to the big name publishers and having it summarily rejected.
So, why play their way? I got tired of bashing my head against the walls they erected to keep me out and I began finding ways around them. What's wrong with that?
http://www.fdungan.com
http://www.dunganbooks.com |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
2001
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 08:34 pm: | |
The Writers' Guild is on strike, however, writers like us have no manner in which to protest or appeal unjust treatment. Publish America keeps sending us those "how-well-they-are doing emails," but they are not about to lower the price of books or pay us any more for them.
All we want is a chance to compete. It's the American way, but it's not their way.
http://www.fdungan.com |
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