Mindsight Forum: Applied & Misapplied Words

Applied & Misapplied Words Log Out | Topics | Search | Forgot Password?
Moderators | Edit Profile

Mindsight Forum » Writers Board » Applied & Misapplied Words

« Previous Next »

Closed: New threads not accepted on this page

Author

Message

Frank Mazur
Wandering Member
Post Number: 203
Registered: 02-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 06:13 am:

This morning's online NYTimes has a piece that I think should interest writers. It deals with a particular adjective which the author of the article states is applied to the wrong noun, and consequently hampers the discussion that might lead to the solution of a related problem. The problem here is the immigration one, but I am NOT providing the link below to stir up discussion concerning it. I think it's been made clear where many people on the board stand. I am providing the link simply because this is a writers' board and those who post here think of themselves as writers and it should go without saying that a writer is concerned with the use of words and their misuse, whether deliberately or more likely unconsciously. So here's the link and enjoy!

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/opinion/28sun4.html

Tom Elkins
Wisdom Member
Post Number: 871
Registered: 01-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 07:46 am:

Do you think a "dispassionate" discussion would be alright, Fred? (Love that word.)

Tom Elkins
NORTH of TEXAS
www.authorsden.com/tomelkins

Joyce Scarbrough
Unity Member
Post Number: 1157
Registered: 03-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 08:42 am:

I vote for "unauthorized".

~Joyce Sterling Scarbrough
True Blue Forever
ISBN 0-9722385-9-X
Different Roads
ISBN 0-9722385-3-0
Authors Ink Books
http://www.authorsinkbooks.com

Read the first chapters: http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
Waste time on Joyce's Blog: http://joycescarbrough.blogspot.com
Watch the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztz5e3XZeo

Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number: 2853
Registered: 10-2002

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 09:45 am:

There are other choices for "illegal""

unlawful
illicit
lawless
wrongful
unconstitutional
criminal
felonious
outlaw

We could use any of those to describe people who have entered our country
"illegally" and have show disdain for our laws. Would one of those be more PC?

Take your pick.

Frank Mazur
Wandering Member
Post Number: 204
Registered: 02-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 03:01 pm:

You can stick with "illegal" and call them "illegal aliens," and then you'll have something in common, which was what the author of the piece way saying in his lead. If you've ever gone over the speed limit, then you are an "illegal driver." Crossed a street outside the corners? You're an "illegal pedestrian." Your alternativev adjectives would do the same thing if applied to the person or persons and not the act.

Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number: 2855
Registered: 10-2002

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 04:59 pm:

Frank,
You are correct. If I speed, I AM an illegal driver. I AM the person who
committed the illegal act. The act is not separate from the person.
Yes, no????

Frank Mazur
Wandering Member
Post Number: 205
Registered: 02-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 06:54 pm:

Bill, if you have a license, you are a "legal driver." Regardless that you exceeded the speed limit.

Bill Nelson
Unity Member
Post Number: 2856
Registered: 10-2002

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 07:17 pm:

True, and, conversely, if you do not have a license, you ARE an illegal driver.

You state "If you've ever gone over the speed limit, then you are an "illegal driver." If you have ever entered a country illegally, you are "an illegal alien!"

This is a rather nonsensical exchange, a simple manipulation of terms.
The ACT creates the legal or illegal status, then the person who performed it must take responsibility for the act, no matter how it is labeled.

Clearly, this is an attempt to whitewash the people that some brand as "illegals". Of course, most of them are good, hard working people and not
a menace to society. Nonetheless, they are here "illegally", have broken our laws and should be punished under those laws. Put any label you wish on them,
but there first step across the border was an illegal act.

I fail to see how any label whatever changes that.

Pacwriter
Unity Member
Post Number: 3074
Registered: 04-2002

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 08:10 pm:

if you speed you are an offender not illegal

the law says that if you enter the USA without a visa or without immigration approval you are to be deported.

if you get caught speeding and have a driver's permit or license you have done an illegal act

if you enter the country without permission you have done an illegal act

http://www.perrycomer.com

Frank Mazur
Wandering Member
Post Number: 206
Registered: 02-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 05:13 am:

It's hard to know where to go next with you, Bill. Either you failed so see one of my comparisons, or you just admitted that you are an illegal driver. Hey, someone call the highway patrol!

If a man from south of the border does the paperwork and enters the country legally, then murders someone (which is against the law) does he immediately become an "illegal alien"? I don't think so. Even if his legal status is revoked, he does not become an "illegal alien."

If a martian shows up on your doorstep, is he/she/it an "illegal alien"? I don't think so. I think in both cases they are just "aliens." They can achieve legal status because such is defined in the law.

Which gets back to the referenced article and one of its points: acts are illegal, people are not. People have rights. To apply the adjective "illegal" to the person--worse, an entire group of persons--is wrong and perhaps even sinister. Moreover, applying your logic, I would be in the right to call those who do so "sinister." And that would not be true.

Stephen Lodge
Wisdom Member
Post Number: 596
Registered: 06-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 10:21 am:

Spin ~

http://www.stephenlodge.com
Novels by Stephen Lodge:
"Charley Sunday's Texas Outfit!"
"Nickel-Plated Dream"
"Shadows of Eagles"

Kevin R. Paglia
Hsympothai Member
Post Number: 334
Registered: 07-2003

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 12:03 pm:

NOT SAYING THERE IS A SIMILARITY TO, JUST USING FOR AN EXAMPLE.

If a pedifile moves withing 500 ft of a school, then they are living in that location "illegally". If someone moves into the country without going through the legal process, then they are living here "illegally". Both groups have laws to remove them. I guess to be accurate the proper terminology should be along the lines of "Immigrates Residing Illegally in State". We could shorten it to IRIS's.

Kevin

Frank Mazur
Wandering Member
Post Number: 209
Registered: 02-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 06:05 am:

This discussion seems at an end, and while there was some attempt to examine the use of words in a clinical fashion, the effort earns nothing higher than a D, IMO. But thanks to all who participated. Special thanks to you, Steve, for your one-word contribution, but I must say that having read many of your posts on popular matters prior to the censors hand, I wonder if you would recognize "spin" if it came in the form of a hammer.

a1207006782096 (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 86.96.226.13

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 06:02 pm:

good 1207006782096 <a href="http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=CHEAP425297&uid=642731707">cheap hawaii vacations</a> cheap hawaii vacations http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=CHEAP425297&uid=642731707
<a href="http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=HERTZ413959&uid=642731626">hertz car rental</a> hertz car rental http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=HERTZ413959&uid=642731626
<a href="http://weblog.xanga.com/CAPITALON/639000246/capital-one-credit-card.html">capital one credit card</a> capital one credit card http://weblog.xanga.com/CAPITALON/639000246/capital-one-credit-card.html
<a href="http://weblog.xanga.com/CAPITAL159497/641553945/capital-one-credit-cards-canada.html">capital one credit cards canada</a> capital one credit cards canada http://weblog.xanga.com/CAPITAL159497/641553945/capital-one-credit-cards-canada.html
<a href="http://www.xanga.com/hotpennystock">hot penny stock</a> hot penny stock http://www.xanga.com/hotpennystock
<a href="http://weblog.xanga.com/NASDAQ121271/641553330/nasdaq-penny-stock.html">nasdaq penny stock</a> nasdaq penny stock http://weblog.xanga.com/NASDAQ121271/641553330/nasdaq-penny-stock.html
<a href="http://www.instantbulletin.com/forum/?mforum=creditcardappro">Instant Credit Card Approval</a> Instant Credit Card Approval http://www.instantbulletin.com/forum/?mforum=creditcardappro
<a href="http://fixedlowinteres.dotbb.be">FIXED LOW INTEREST CREDIT CARDS</a> FIXED LOW INTEREST CREDIT CARDS http://fixedlowinteres.dotbb.be

a1208152487361 (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 202.28.27.4

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 07:54 am:

Administration