| Author |
Message |
    
Perry Comer
Unity Member
Post Number:
1288
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 08:35 am: |   |
Many of the regulars here have moved on from Publishamerica to other publishers. Many of those publishers are POD (print on demand or publish on demand). So after some time with POD publishers, are you happy with the results?
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Jennifer Lynn
Unity Member
Post Number:
1179
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 08:59 am: | |
Not as happy as I could be, Perry. But at least I'm selling more than I did with PA. I think distribution is the main bone of contention. And it was the same issue with PA. How can people know our books are out there, if they don't know our books are out there?
Jenn
Jennifer Lynn
www.jenniferlynn.ca |
priceless1
Hunger Member
Post Number:
54
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 09:08 am: | |
Jenn, it's a shame your books aren't getting the distribution. You're right, though, a lack of distribution is the death knell of any book. A marketing dept. is vital if any author and publisher want to make it. I'm happy to see that you're selling more book, though. Best of luck!
Lynn
Lynn
lynnprice.net
|
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2844
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 09:10 am: | |
I'm happy with all but one aspect of my second POD association. The publisher of my second book does not use one of Amazon's mandated distributors. As a result, my book is marked up DOUBLE on amazon.
Since the majority of my sales have always come from amazon, this is a very bad thing for me.
On the plus side, my publisher accepts returns and works helpfully with any bookstore wishing to stock my book. Except for the amazon situation, I am very happy with this POD publisher. |
LisaL (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 65.193.91.99
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 09:15 am: | |
i ordered shrewsman's bulletproof soul and the quality was good from the black death place. i think they need editors, though, but it is a minor thing. it was not like the book was chucked full of errors.
i've heard shrews is getting handled weird by them anyhow. he is too good for that.
i would not take it shrewsmaster if i were u
 |
Stephen Paul
Awareness Member
Post Number:
7
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 10:40 am: | |
Like Jenn and Laurel, about my only complaint is promotion and Ingrams won't stock many. My publisher has a good discount and also accepts returns and seems to go out of his way to work on delivery time if bought through him. However, looking at bookfinder4u.com, most books seem to be available through many online stores.
Steve |
Stacy Anderson
Awareness Member
Post Number:
10
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 10:06 pm: | |
Hello Everyone,
Jennifer,
I've never gone the POD route even though I almost got tricked into going with sleazy publishers. Luckily I saw the signs and ran for the hills. Anyway, about what you said about people not knowing the books are out there, this is true on ALL levels. It's not just POD books so POD authors shouldn't feel bad at all. I can't tell you how many times I have gone into the bookstore and seen shelves and shelves of books from people I have never heard of and I am a BIG reader. You all know what I mean. Haven't you found yourself staring at a bunch of books and you wonder, " Who are these people? " LOL, I am 26, but I probably read more than people twice my age so I know of many authors. Still I find myself staring at shelves with people who I've never heard of then find out they have been writing for years! My point? I think promotion is more of a death trap than distribution problems. I think if someone wants your book enough they will order it or do whatever they can to get it. I am not prejudice against books no matter how they were published or who the author is. I waste no time ordering things if I want it bad enough. But without that promotion, it doesn't matter how you published if you can't reach your audience. It isn't just POD books that are drowning. Look at all those books we see in the stores, count out of ten books of how many you've heard of. I think POD authors are doing a great job if they can bring even a little attention to themselves. The entire book industry sucks ( if I may be so childish )LOL, but that's the best choice of words right now. People say it's hard to get a traditional publisher? Well I think it's harder to find a publisher to promote you well no matter what kind of publisher it is. Some people think just because they're from Harper Collins or Random House their books will sell...well we all know that's not true is it? Everyone needs promotion. That's the key. I don't think distribution is the biggest setback seeing how some authors have books in the stores yet you still don't know who they are. It's weird and kind of disheartening isn't it? I agree with everything you and everyone else here has said. The book world is getting hard all around. I think everyone should do the best they can even if we feel it doesn't measure up to the hype other people can make for their books. I think a lot of us authors compare ourselves to others and become disappointed. I do that, it's natural, we all do it to a point. We need to sit down and focus on what WE'VE accomplished and not worry about what level things fit into. To me an author is an author ( no matter how they became one ) if they wrote from their heart. Promotion can make or break you. In some cases an author can be found with a great book without much promotion and get loads of attention. We all know that's quite rare but when it happens it's sweet justice. Some people's books never hit shelves but they make impressive sales. Some authors' books can be in every bookstore and STILL not even make back their advance ( if they had one ). You've all succeeded...no matter what some people may think. I wish you all further success!
www.stacy-deanne.net
|
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1087
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 11:20 pm: | |
Stacy,
Thanks for you and people like you. You just said what every one of us needs so much to hear. That no matter who reads our books or doesn't read them, because no one knows we are there, we still made something good. Something to be honestly proud of, no matter who published us.
I can't type to well right now, because I am sitting here at my computer with a dying 3 week old kitty in my left hand, wrapped up in a small washcloth to keep it warm. I am just trying to let it know that it's little kitty life means something to someone, even if it is only me. Perspective is different at every level.
Claudia |
Jennifer Lynn
Unity Member
Post Number:
1180
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:32 am: | |
Thanks for your comments Stacy and you're right about success. Having a book published is quite an accomplishment in itself.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. This time round I got in with a very nice electronic publisher who happens to do POD (at their authors request). I've promoted like crazy, but with no budget (and no advance to use as a budget) it's difficult. And I don't want to get so hung up in the promotional ride that I forget to do what I love, which is to write.
Claudia, so sorry to hear about the kitten. At least in its short life, it will have known love.
Jenn
Jennifer Lynn
www.jenniferlynn.ca |
Stacy Anderson
Awareness Member
Post Number:
11
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:46 am: | |
Claudia and Jennifer,
You're very welcome! |
Todd Hunter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1386
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 04:48 am: | |
Actually, it's rather interesting...
A bookstore manager, another author and I were just speaking about the notion of promotion and writing...
Paraphrasing, the other author mentioned that many of the old time authors could get away with said actions......just write a book, ship it off to the agent, and then get back to doing what they want to do, write another book.
In today's world, though, it's imperative that promotion takes place...and if the author is the one who has to do that, then they need to get out and do so...that means appearances, book signings, etc. etc.
The manager of the store (Waldenbooks) was in full agreement...and fortunately, just moments before that meeting, had set me up for another signing...it's good to have managers who realize the value of promotion...
If anyone's in the Topeka area May 15th, check it out... |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2847
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 06:01 am: | |
Stacy pointed out the pitfalls for all authors, not just unknown POD ones.
I recently read a book about the life and times of Jack Kerouac. Kerouac is almost an icon now. Much quoted, highly touted and imitated. Kerouac had the ear and eyes of major Yew York publishers. Even so, they drove him over the edge with rewrites, personal appearances, book signings. He was not all that good at personal appearances and staying sober for long periods So even Kerouac didn't simply get to write his manuscript and send it in. |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
677
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 05:23 am: | |
I think if PODs or whatever were 8 bucks to buy and made as a small pb, then they would sell better, authors would order more for promotion etc...
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Sharon D. Martin
Wandering Member
Post Number:
144
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 07:10 pm: | |
I agree with you Steven!
Sharon |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
678
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 09:08 am: | |
The DEATHRGRIP2 antho I was in was designed that way. 8 bucks and small like a REAL pb.
Dunno how Walt Hicks did that...
http://www.hellboundbooks.com/deathgrip_legacy.html
Remember that one Laurel? Good production for sure.
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
priceless1
Hunger Member
Post Number:
58
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 10:15 am: | |
Well, Steve, to quote what has been bandied about in your honor, you are, indeed, prolific. What I'm reading of yours right now is blowing my doors off. Someone hand me some grog and a sword!
Lynn
Lynn
lynnprice.net
|
Todd Hunter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1400
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 01:08 pm: | |
As everyone knows my stance on pricing, I'll just say "Amen" and leave it at that... |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
680
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 01:37 pm: | |
Lynn, thanks. I hope that is a good thing. You don't even have the best part...
Just was asked to write a tale for an high fant RPG (role playing game) antho/world. I don't do rpg stuff (prefer real history), but my friend who designed a module has prevailed on my barbarian side.
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2858
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 01:58 pm: | |
Yes Steven. I remember ALL your books. Kevin Grover has posted many times here the actual cost of having a book printed so there is no excuse for ultra high prices. Kevin manages to keep his book pricing within reasonable parameters so it stands to reason that others could too.
|
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
681
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 05:44 pm: | |
I think availability has a great deal to do with sales, dumb as it sounds. Folks gotta be able to find it to buy it.
Price is the key in any matter. Some folks that like me will buy a book for a good price. However, if they were cheaper, I could sell a ton more to the folks to don't know well...also casual readers in stores are more likely to pluck down a few bucks more than a TON of them.
I always try to give my works good titles. Something that is easy to remember in our quick society.
Oddly enough, I think my best stuff has never been pubbed yet.
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Todd Hunter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1402
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 06:37 pm: | |
Steven, you been sneaking peeks at my playbook, or something??
(in regards to pricing)
:-P
Yes, availability has a great deal to do with it, but even if the book is available in a store, doesn't mean the casual reader (because the fan reader is going to be looking for it specifically) is going to see it...
That's where book signings come into play...
and for those who are completely opposed to doing signings (you know who you are), you don't HAVE to do one in order to get yourself noticed in a store...it's the best way, but one can also see if the store will be kind enough to distribute your promotional material (bookmarks, flyers, etc). The store I'm having my signing at next month, the manager actually makes a point out of putting these types of things in with a customer's order...
And even if the customer tosses it in the trash, they still have to look at it to see whether it was something they needed or not...and voila, your title and name have registered in their mind...
And who knows? The customer might pause and read the blurb or whatnot, and think to themselves, "I gotta get me some of this."
And lo and behold, that's where the pricing comes into play..... |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
816
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 05:11 am: | |
We seem to always hear the same three terms in every discussion on how to improve our chances of a successful sales campaign.
1. POD
2. Price
3. Availability
Let's take 'em apart.
POD - When boiled down to simplest terms it's a technology, nothing else. But it's a technology that carries a stigma. A stigma brought about by some degree to the price and availability issue but more importantly, quality. that's the real question mark.
Price - A little higher than traditional but driven much higher by the fact that POD publishers need to recoup the losses resulting from the books that never should have been published in the first place. Quality again.
Availability - Who can blame booksellers for not wanting unreturnable dogs taking up shelfspace that might be occupied by Tom Clancy? Most of that unsalable trash comes from POD publishers, although I'm sure that Simon/Schuster has a few tank now and then.
The keys for a POD (and I use the term POD only to describe the technology) publisher to shed that albatross are:
1. Be selective and strive for quality manuscripts.
2. Price their books competitively
3. Find a way to accept returns.
The pricing and return policy will make them more attractive to bookstores and the quality offerings should handle the rest.
It looks to me as if a number of small (and not so small) publishers are trying to escape that image and operating a lot like the big guys. Their success will ultimately be determined by the appeal of their products. |
priceless1
Hunger Member
Post Number:
59
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 10:37 am: | |
Stop! All of you are right. Geez, I feel like a commercial.
Okay, first off, the stigma of digital printing stems from the larger companies who place parameters upon their distribution. Let's say a publisher prints their books through Acme printers because they offer the best distribution online. That's great. However, they are the ones who also set the standards by which a publisher does business.
In order to do direct business with Ingrams, a publisher needs to have 10 titles out. For new or small publishers, Acme Printing circumvents that problem by placing your titles with Ingrams for you. The problem arises when said small publisher sees that they're listed as a POD printer, and this is where bookstores balk because the majority of POD publishers don't have a return policy. For Acme Printers to take away that POD moniker in their distribution, small publisher must have 25 titles out.
Other problems arise if Acme Printers slip a digit when uploading small publisher's info into the Ingrams database. Their books suddenly come up as being non-returnable, even though they have a return policy. Said small publisher discovers this and has a stroke trying to get Acme to fix the problem. Acme tells small publisher that the problem will be fixed in the bookstores within 3-4 weeks. Publisher has another stroke over the potential lost sales and booksignings.
Small publisher pays a premium to Acme for printing services due to their wonderful distribution. This, in turn, forces the price of the book to be higher than the market will bear.
Where the growing publisher can break this dependence for strong drugs is to simply find another printer and apply directly with the bookstore chain databases to get the books listed. It takes an amazing amount of legwork, but it proves to benefit them and their authors in the long run. They no longer have the POD listing after their name and the correct information is entered into bookstore databases because publisher and bookstores are dealing direct. The extra bonus is that printing costs with other companies is much more competitive and that translates to lower retail prices. Everybody goes home a winner.
Quality: Dennis is absolutely right, and I would be happy to buy this man a Twinkie. The only way POD to lose that stigma is also in the quality of manuscripts accepted. By earning a reputation of one who is extremely selective, publishers do themselves the service of gaining respect among the bookstores. It's time consuming, but this new technology has bred those who would exploit the process for a fast buck. So, unfortunately the detractors of POD's has been well-earned.
Returns: This is a must. 'Nuf said about that.
I would also add that it's important for anyone who is seeking a publisher to ask whether they attend the book expos and such. If they believe in their author's works, they should believe in them enough to shove them under the noses of the bookstore chains and indies during the conventions. It's expensive for the publisher, yes, but if they've published quality work, it's worth every dime because it translates to sales. Again, everyone goes home a winner.
Best of luck to us all.
Lynn
Lynn
lynnprice.net
|
Todd Hunter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1407
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 12:38 pm: | |
Didn't Wile E. Coyote get most of his gadgets from a place called Acme??
:-P
POD's (at least I believe) didn't initially start out as being as stigmatic as they are today...that came about because many a publisher went to the POD model with high hopes of making high amounts of money with low amounts of effort...and we see where things have ended up... |
Bill Nelson
Hunger Member
Post Number:
69
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 01:13 pm: | |
I agree with most all of what has been posted here.
I do think you've all overlooked one important part of the
publishing world.
People are slow to change and accept new ways. Just like in many other industries, the concept of "we've always done it this way" is strong in the pub. industry as well. That attitude sunk the oil business in the 80's, almost got the auto and airline industries in the 90's and, I think, the insurance industry is not far behind.
The overworked statement "think outside the box" is still true. Innovation, mixed with common sense, is what made this country (insert patriotic music here)and failure to change out-dated thinking will be the doom of many publishers.
bn |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
819
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 06:58 pm: | |
Bill's post brings up some more ingredients, the big one is called The Paradigm. I guess that becomes the "threat" factor for the established houses. We talked about this a couple of years ago.
Just how much do the traditional publishers fear this technology? When you think about it, the possibility (probability?) exists to completely change the industry and many of the old boys are in danger of being passed by.
But who really dictates, the publishers or the booksellers?
Kinda reminds me of the Swiss watchmakers sticking up their noses at quartz movements. |
weary Writer (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 204.42.20.182
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 06:21 pm: | |
B&N has turned me down cold because a book of mine comes up listed as POD from certain companies no matter what they say to the contrary that they are.
Borders, B Daltons and WALDENS have been great, though.
Terrible thing to be listed among the "pod people" and it is a shame that a small company cannot be seen as a PUBLISHING company and not a POD if they really publish books--and it is a shame if a company will not be up front about all the facts with an author before they send them out to promote--"Oh, BTW, Ingrams only carries 3 copies at a time--didn't you know that?"
Great to think that one can have a company behind you but they only weild rubber swords and are only interested in their own personal book sales.
It is also a shame to supply a printing company with a great many links, reviewers and whatnot and only see their personal books subbed for reviews and yours to only a handful of them.
It is a shame to be asked to sing the praises of a company to many writer pals and only have them treat you like a second class citizen.
It is also great to write a "publisher" many times and only get a response when the company mouth piece wants to be a smart ass.
It is also hilarious to see the books written by the folks who run the publisher, filled with historical errors and laughable mistakes.
This business is just that, a business and oddly enough, filled with the same jerks and scumbags that will screw you in the street if they can. They dress it up in a better suit, but it is still a greasy handjob in the end.
Sucking the dreams out of many and exploiting others for their gain, isn't that the definition of a leech or vampire?
There has to be a better way.
|
Stacy Anderson
Awareness Member
Post Number:
18
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 10:07 pm: | |
Hi All,
I agree with Steven and others who mention lower pricing would help POD books sell better. But we all know there's a lot of other things to help too. Most of the POD authors I have encountered say the problem they have most is that the publisher didn't edit their books as well as they should. I'm not speaking of the normal editing ( like grammer, etc. ) I'm speaking of the techincal editing publishers do to make the books fit in the category it should fit into for bookstores and library qualifications. Every kind of book has guidelines ( it's a complicated subject but I am tackling it as best I can ) LOL, many POD books are turned down cold because they don't come anywhere near the guidelines. A lot of authors feel it is straight prejudice and I agree ( to a point ) but I don't blame the POD author if their book doesn't get accepted into stores. I blame the POD publisher because if more POD publishers carefully took the time to make sure their books fit the important guidelines and were up to the standards most traditional books are then more POD authors would get a fair chance. Many of the POD publishers don't care to help the authors sell books because a lot of them make their money from fees they eventually end up charging the author. So why would they care if the books sell? It's sad because POD authors are left in the cold for something they have no control over. A lot of POD authors work their butts off to get into stores and to get reviews only to realize their book doesn't meet proper standards that the publishing world has set for all books. Yes promotion and everything is a key and should be approached by both author and publisher but what some are missing is that no matter how good a POD book or author is many are screwed out of their chance of reaching readers because their publisher had no intentions or lacked concern to make the books to the best of the ability.
Example: It's like being in Algebra class. There is a specific form to working an algebra problem. That form is the only form accepted by the teacher no matter if you got the right answer or not. It's all about how you PREPARED and WORKED the equation.
The POD problem is about how the publishers haven't prepared the books the way they know they should be prepared...either they don't care or some just don't know any better and have no business calling themselves publishers anyway. In other words, the publishing world and bookstore world only accept books that fit in a certain level no matter how good they are. Except for the occassional stocking of one book here and there ( in an author's local store ), POD authors do get cheated. I believe its beyond the author's control. Until the POD publishers realize they need to fit books into required publishing standards ( and some know this but strictly don't care ) the problem will only get worse.
I hope I haven't confused anyone with my algebra theory...LOL Success to all!
www.stacy-deanne.net |
priceless1
Hunger Member
Post Number:
65
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 09:17 am: | |
Stacy, you have it right! Editing and pricing is a must. While no one can EVER confuse me with being a math genius (that's hubby's job), I definitely understand the need to publish viable work so the author earns the respect they're due. We have 7 editors on staff now. Three are strictly developmental editing and the rest do nothing but the copy editing. We have someone completely separate do the formatting for print. In other words, no one touches someone else's job. They're paid to do one thing.
Yes, it's time to break that mold of a bad stigma. POD is nothing but technology and shouldn't have anything to do with quality. But since there is that reputation, we have our work cut out for us.
Yes, success to all! Otherwise, what's the point?
Lynn
Lynn
lynnprice.net
|
Bill Nelson
Hunger Member
Post Number:
72
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 09:56 am: | |
To belabor the point of publisher ills, let me tell you a quick story.
Many of you will agree that Robin Cook came out with a gem in "Coma" oh so many years ago.
I just checked out his latest from the library. I couldn't read more than thirty pages. It sucks (in my opinion). Here is a case of simply trying to make money (which, I realize is necessary for the publisher) and not trying to put out a quality product. His name was more prominent on the cover than the title. The story is of no consequence, just ride the past success for a profit.
If they had the pelotas to put the same promotion budget into a new author with a good book (untested) they might discover the next Cook, but it is too big a risk for the bean-counters. A dilemma, no?
bn |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2869
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 10:37 am: | |
Exactly right, Bill.
Unless someone I know recommends a best seller to me, I bypass them. Many of the unknown writers whose books are published by small houses write better stories than the handful of best sellers I've read in a while.
Two out of the three best sellers I've read recently were so boring I could barely finish them. |
Gloria Marlow
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
860
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:52 am: | |
I just find most of the books I try to read lately have too many words. I know that is a standard they strive to meet. I can read a book that is 400 pages long just as easily as one that is 150 pages long, as long as all those words are taking me somewhere. I know I have belabored this point to death, but I just get sick of picking a book up and starting to read it, just to be told every angle of every chair in a room, every nuance of color in every curtain. Get on with it already. I would say lately over 1/2 the books I read, I skip close to 1/3 of the pages, just to get to the meaningful parts. I've always really enjoyed the imagery part of reading, the part that lets me imagine myself being there in that place or time. I think the more minute description is in a book, the less I'm able to lose myself in the story, because I'm so busy trying to keep up with what is where and how everyone looks, etc. It's a tricky business to put a reader in a place, but not nail her feet to the ground.
Anyway, there is too much standardization of everything in this world right now, and books are no different. There is way too much formula to getting everything just right. The thing is that the standardization of everything, makes the world a generic place that people soon lose interest in. It doesn't take into account different tastes and opinions. We all have our favorite authors, our favorite books, I would wager a bet that no two of us on this board have the exact same list of those. Why? Because the stories, the authors appeal to the individuality of us. Maybe we like the same books or authors, but the reasons why may be as varied as can be.
I don't worry overmuch about the standards. I write. People seem to like it. The praise I felt meant the most was from those who had never read an entire book. You may say they liked it because they had nothing to compare it with. I tend to think it's a great compliment that out of all the books out there, mine was the first one they were able to get through. I'm not out to write this huge literary masterpiece, I'm just out to entertain and offer everyday people a chance to slip away from the world they inhabit with a simple story that isn't full of technology and babble, but speaks to everyone by it's sheer simplicity.
I didn't mean to completely steal this thread or to take away from Stacy's post, so I will add something almost relevant and say that having a book actually edited by the publisher was the high point of my career as a writer so far. It was very edifying to be assured someone read it and thought it worthy of their comments and efforts.
Anyway, that's my thoughts for today.
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Gloria Marlow
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
861
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:54 am: | |
P.S. --- In answer to the original question on this thread, Perry.
I have been very pleased with my experience with AIB. The book will be released in May, so I can't say anything about the money aspect, but the rest of it has been outstanding.
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Todd Hunter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1414
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 05:07 pm: | |
The latest Tom Clancy novel was riddled with obvious errors, and only ended up being half of a book (the ending left much to be desired, and seemed as if they chopped the last half off, so they could repackage it later and sell it as a sequel)...
So, yes, Bill, it does appear as if publishers just want to ride out past success to future profits... |
Stacy Anderson
Awareness Member
Post Number:
19
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 05:37 pm: | |
What gets me is how " new " authors are told to edit things perfectly all the time to be accepted for publication, yet everyday I turn around and find simple errors in famous authors' books ( errors I haven't made since kindergarten ). I mean errors no one over the age of five have any business making. The scary thing is these are authors who are so known they have provided the latest mode of writing. A bestselling author and editor who I studied under told me that now publishers want fiction books that reach an eighth grade level ( maximum ) because that's the level many people read at. I laughed. I told her I was not about to " dumb " down my writing just because half of America didn't learn correct grammar or couldn't read without calling out the words. I'd never heard something so ridiculous.
There are many things that prove the publishing world is unfair unless you got solid sales behind you. Once you become a name or at least gain a small audience, publishers could care less how will you spell or how many commas you use. I've witnessed this for a fact. As a writer I couldn't sell myself out whether I get famous or not. We all have a responsibility to deliver quality literature to readers.
Things that make me go, hmmm. LOL 
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Gloria Marlow
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
864
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 08:01 pm: | |
Perry, Ignore my earlier answer, I just realized you were asking about POD publishers, which AIB is not. It's a traditional publisher... geeze, LaurieAnne's going to kill me.
I think the line that we need to edit everything perfectly before submitting it is a bunch of hogwash that is just being fed to everyone to make authors think some companies are more legit than they are. No one can edit everything perfectly everytime. Especially your own writing. I wrote a letter today for one of my bosses, in it, he used the word "causally" several times, every time, I told myself that the word was "causally" not "casually", when I reread it, I would have sworn it said "causally" when he brought it back to me and said "no cookie today, Gloria", I saw that I had typed "casually" everytime. That's not because I'm stupid or don't know how to type. It's because I saw what I thought I wrote there. It's an easy mistake when we're writing to skip words or put in the wrong words, it's also easy to overlook them when we're editing, because we see what we are expecting to see. That's why publishers need to edit. The more pairs of eyes, the better. I sent my manuscript to AIB and realized a day later that on the very first page I had used the word "site" instead of "sight"...talk about feeling dumb.
Stacy, I agree with not wanting to "dumb" down your books, and I didn't mean I do that. I just like keeping them to a point where the normal person doesn't have to break out a dictionary. My books are by no means "see jane run" simple type things, they have twists and turns, action and romance and, all the other good stuff, but there's no reason to lose all of that in trying to prove that I'm smart. I don't usually talk over people's heads. What good would that do? I just talk. When I write, I just write.
If that sounds confrontational, I didn't mean it to. I'm just babbling.
As far as 8th grade reading material...that was the grade when I found Phyllis Whitney, Victoria Holt and Mary Stewart. I loved all of them and they were all considered adult fiction. Of course that was also the grade I tried to read Judy Blume's "Forever" and my mom hid it from me. It wasn't adult fiction, but it was a lot "hotter" than what I was reading.
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Stacy Anderson
Awareness Member
Post Number:
20
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 09:06 pm: | |
Hi Gloria,
I totally agree with you in every aspect. I don't like books where you have to break out dictionaries either. One of my favorite authors uses words I've never heard of and I'd ask my mom and she'll say " Why is she writing with those words? They haven't been used in years. " I definitely agree with what you said because I think there is nothing worse than a book with a bunch of big words ( that are no longer used ). I feel like the author is showing off ( depending on what kind of book it is ). If you are a scientist writing about a scientific method then by all means use those huge words. But if your book is fiction geared toward the average teen or college student I think it's rather tacky for an author to use words they know the readers can't identify with. I wouldn't want my readers to feel dumb. I quit reading books if I have to look up each word too. I understand Gloria and I fully agree.
The part about the dumbing down our books is when publishers expect us to write an adult fiction book as if the potential readers will be coming out of fifth grade, LOL. If you're writing for children, write where they understand. If you write for adults ( 21 and up ) write for the average adult. I believe the average adult reads way better than an eighth grade level ( at least the ones that read normally ) LOL. I salute any author who uses their intelligence to educate instead of using it to make others feel small. As we all know some of the best books are simple and easy. And we all know simple doesn't mean dumb at all. |
Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
844
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:20 pm: | |
I ran across this in today's edition of Publisher's Lunch. The last paragraph is somewhat interesting. Maybe PA is a cut above the other POD's, eh?
In-Store Self-Publishing
Equipment manufacturer InstaBook has receive steady press attention for their relatively small and inexpensive POD manufacturing equipment. Now Bookends, an independent bookseller in Ridgewood, NJ, is partnering with InstaBook to offer in-store self-publishing in trade paperback. As separate services, they'll also offer such books for sale on their shelves, and provide formatting, editing, publishing consulting, copyright and ISBN registration, and cover design. Prices start at $150 for 10 books.
Bookends will also sell POD versions of classics from the InstaBook Digital Bookstore network, "relatively inexpensively," with the option of customizing the cover.
The program is a little similar to the pilot Borders Personal Publishing program that the chain is testing with Xlibris at seven stores. Earlier in the week, the WSJournal reported on Xlibris's progress. The company says they were profitable for the first time in the last quarter of 2003, and will show a full-year profit for 2004. Of the 10,269 titles they have published so far, 85 percent have sold fewer than 200 copies, and 3.4 percent (or 352 in all) have sold more than 500 copies.
More info at the Bookends website
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LaurieAnne
Unity Member
Post Number:
1387
Registered: 12-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 02:13 pm: | |
Gloria,
AMEN! (about the words)
and THANK YOU! (for the compliment) I hope I can continue to live up to your words. (Um, I wonder of anyone is going to get sick of hearing us compliment each other on here. ) As for the POD thing, I knew you simply had a brain fart. LOL. I'll let you live this time. (G)
Stacey,
AMEN! to the reading level info, too! I got entirely SICK of being told by my personal editor to "dumb down" my writing. If I'd wanted to be dumb, I wouldn't have studied in school. LOL
LA
www.authorsinkbooks.com
LaurieAnne
|
Jackie Grant Miller
Awareness Member
Post Number:
7
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 07:48 pm: | |
This is a good thread. One that resembles a thread I started and left, on Writers.Net, about being a first time author (which I am by the way) and was quickly attacked. At least the comments here are ones that a person can deal with, grow from and pass on in peace!
Congrats to all members here!!!
Trafford Publishing is the one I decided to go with. Authors are paid 60% of the royalties with good discount percentages for the distributors, libraries, and the author who will but books to sell. Recently, Trafford lowered their cost (to print) to the author so the sale price could be lowered.
As a writer and now author, I have a quality issue for myself regarding the type of book I have published as I sure all POD authors do. Not to mention the content that will keep the avid reader and the soon-to-be fiction reader.
I had to reject three proofs. Two were due to the cover and one was to the page set up. It delayed my release date but I wanted it right.
As to the quality of a editor on a POD...that is TRUE! I had to get a second editor to go over the content, structure... Not that it was bad. As a matter of fact, she said my creativity and structure was good. She wanted to mainly concentrate on the first chapter that is the Do or Die of all writers.
As to bookstores, Borders in Puente Hills Mall (S. Cal) took my book because the mgr. thought the cover was good and was willing to see how it would sell in his store. Honestly, the fact that I have green eyes and I look/approached the female assistant mgr. first before the store's male mgr. also helped in my pitch.
I have been in sales for a long time (Medical mostly). Of course, the task of contacting and pushing my book is not a big concern for me. With the right approach and well practiced pitch (Words, Voice Tone, Attire...), you should have better ammo to get your book in the store. Beside, doing some research on the bookstore and mgr. would help when they think you know them before they are asked to get to know you and your book. Those are my thoughts on POD
Jackie Grant Miller
ISBN 141207782-2
Trafford Publishing |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3264
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 03:08 pm: | |
"I have been in sales for a long time (Medical mostly). Of course, the task of contacting and pushing my book is not a big concern for me. With the right approach and well practiced pitch (Words, Voice Tone, Attire...), you should have better ammo to get your book in the store."
Better ammo to have is a publisher with standard discounts, returnability, and (as you pointed out) stringent quality controls. From personal experience, all the right approaches and well-practiced pitches aren't going to help if those aren't in place.
But it also depends on what a person is after when they go with a POD company...which is another topic for another day...
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Blog
MWWB |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1615
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 09:47 pm: | |
Print-on-demand began in 1997. Since then, there have been some significant advances in desktop printing. Production runs of 10, 30, or 30 books are possible at per copy prices below those of print-on-demand. Currently, DUNGAN BOOKS is using both methods.
With print-on-demand, the term "hardcover" occasionally gets distorted. Make sure that what you regard as a hardcover is what the publisher and the printer have in mind. Most hardcovers these days look like a Dr. Seuss children's book. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you desire. However, if you are expecting a traditionally bound cloth hardcover, you will need to specify it.
http://www.fdungan.com/alex.htm |
Fred Dungan
Unity Member
Post Number:
1687
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 07:53 pm: | |
I'm a writer, not a salesman. I let my work speak for itself on my websites at http://www.fdungan.com and http://www.dunganbooks.com. No hype. What you see is what you get.
http://www.fdungan.com/vigilantes.htm |
Sid Smith
Awareness Member
Post Number:
1
Registered: 08-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 06:39 pm: | |
Wow! So many comments to respond to. Where shall I begin?
First, about pricing. The book publishing world is funny. On the one hand, a 60 page E-book will sell for $97, but writers think they have to sell their books for $8 to get anything sold. It's all about market demand, really, and has little to do with price, other than the rather arbitrary pricing that's been set by the publishing industry. The truth is that they could raise the average price of a paperback to $29, and it wouldn't have much of an impact.
So, the answer isn't to lower your price, but to increase demand. Sure, that can be tough, but it's what you've got to do anyway. I've been working with a multi-millionaire who landed a six-figure contract for her first book. Yet, she's done 95% or more of the marketing - much of it online and through free teleclasses. If you're not doing teleclasses, podcasts, blogging, or any of the newer means of getting the word out, then you're missing out big time. Our plan for her second book is to saturate the Internet with short, but helpful articles, and that's just the beginning.
What she and many other successful authors do is to think in terms of a platform, and not just a single book. If Harry Potter had been just one book, it wouldn't have been so successful. Same with the Chicken Soup stuff, regardless of how you feel about the books. By the way, they (Chicken Soup) started by going door-to-door at bookstores (self-published). My client, for example, sells the books merely as a means of bringing people into her larger network where they'll purchase services for upwards of $15,000! But, she still doesn't discount her books.
Second - the whole POD conversation. POD publishers are as varied as the books they publish. I've worked with some clients to find an agent and a traditional publisher. I've worked with other clients to self-publish their books. In the case of self-publishing, I just work directly with Lightning Source. It's easy, painless, and they have a direct relationship with Ingram. I'll occasionally get a call from a book store because they found the book through Ingram or Bowker. I get better pricing, and I'm in total control of the process. It's a lot easier than you might imagine. On the other hand, there are some very fine POD publishers out there, and depending on what you want to spend, you'll get either great support or no support. I particularly like Cold Tree Press and Book Locker. Mark Levine has an excellent book called "The Fine Print of Self-Publishing" that compares the major POD publishers.
If anyone has experiences they'd like to share about working with publishers, let me know. I'm always on the lookout for hands-on information.
Good luck to everyone!
Sid
http://www.writeandpublishyourbook.com |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
4343
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 08:21 pm: | |
Out here in the boonies, the middle of America, my experience has been different than those who live on either coast. My best book signings have been at libraries in towns of less than 4000 people. If they know me, they will come. If not.....they won't.
Publicity is in the same small town papers as the libraries I mentioned. I had to go to Pennsylvania to be interviewed on TV. Any large towns with TV stations or newspapers in my area are not interested in me or anyone like me. The newspapers print reviews from the AP wire service, reprint interviews with iconic household names from the major dailies. A reviewer from Wichita KS reviews my books in her major daily because she likes my writing style. Topeka, Lincoln, and Omaha either ignore promotions sent them or barely disguise their contempt.
Book stores act like I'm a pathetic homeless woman or someone's demented grandmother who just happened to wander in. (I'm not young, pretty, or rich but do clean up nice.) All my books are POD published. One publisher does give standard discounts and takes returns but has nothing to worry about when it comes to bulk orders.
I do what I can to publicize myself but like Fred Dungan said, I am a writer, not an agent or publicist. Most of my books sell on amazon or by word of mouth by people who order signed copies from me.
Laurel Johnson
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Dennis Collins
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
2033
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 05:02 am: | |
I disagree about the pricing statement. If mine was the only book in the store I might be able to write any number I want on the price tag but when you put my 202 page, $20 book on a shelf next to Tom Clancy's 500 page, $8 offering, well...
Laurel... You're much too hard on yourself especially when it comes to appearance. Have you ever seen Val McDermid?
Dennis Collins
Moderator
www.theunrealmccoy.com |
Todd Hunter
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
3774
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 05:43 pm: | |
So, how is everyone doing with their POD publishers?
Mindsight Moderator
Aston's Blog |
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