| Author |
Message |
    
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
701
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 06:08 pm: |   |
Most trade paperbacks and POD materials seem to be popped out in 6 X 9 (or slightly smaller) versions...at a price of 14-20 bucks.
Now, I was involved in DEATHGRIP: LEGACY OF TERROR anthology that was a very small (mass market pb size-small like in real stores) http://www.hellboundbooks.com/deathgrip_legacy.html
for 7.99
My question?
Why aren't more PODs or small press runs done in this smaller format? The size is right, the PRICE is right and heck, the quality is good.
Thoughts and facts folks?
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Perry Comer
Unity Member
Post Number:
1315
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 07:13 pm: | |
I have wondered the same thing.
Could have to do with trade paperback size being more "acceptable" to bookstores?
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2904
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 07:39 pm: | |
I insisted on a 6x9 size for both my books and prefer that size. It is much easier to read, usually has larger font. Most smaller dimension paperbacks have small font. As a person whose vision is failing measurably at a rapid rate, larger fonts are easier for me to read. I'm sure much of the reading public reads the larger font easier than small.
I have to read the smaller books with smaller font with a magnifying glass and do not like to read that way.
But you are correct. Smaller books are usually cheaper. BUT.....I asked my second publisher what the cost difference would be if Igot the smaller dimension book. She said probably nothing because there would be more pages.
Kevin Grover or LA could probably give you a more scientific answer than mine has been. |
Olen Armstrong
Wandering Member
Post Number:
193
Registered: 06-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 07:45 pm: | |
Actually, my research says trade paperbacks are the size they are because it's easier. The binder can use standard typing sized paper, cut in half. The only thing special is the cover stock. It's a little bigger to accomodate the spine width of the book.
At least that's what my research found. Just easier for the printing and binding process. No special paper size required. Has nothing to do with the reader or the bookstore. 11X8.5 paper turned sideways makes an 8.5X5.5 book.
A smaller sized book (standard paperback) would require non-standard sized paper and push the price up.
But I could be fulla crap.
I often am.
Later,
Olen A
|
Jennifer Lynn
Unity Member
Post Number:
1225
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 08:17 pm: | |
GOOD LORD!!!
The title of this thread almost gave me heart failure!
Jennifer Lynn
www.jenniferlynn.ca |
C. E. Winterland
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1458
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 06:34 am: | |
I would guess that it has a little to do with print technology and paper types as well. Trade paperbacks often have a heavier weight paper, though I do have some that are on much thinner stock material. I don't know, but perhaps offset presses are capable of handling and feeding different types of paper stock than digital presses.
CEW |
LaurieAnne
Unity Member
Post Number:
1381
Registered: 12-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 10:00 am: | |
The trade size is used more to be able to recoup costs, depending, of course, on the type of print run utilized. Even with offset printing, the cost per copy is around $4. Now, if you figure in author royalties, overhead, and returns & allowances, the costs add up quickly.
Also, with mass market, the covers are ripped off and sent back, the books being disposed. The covers alone are returned for credit, and the company then writes off the return as destroyed for a deduction.
Mass Markets are also such a tough arena to invade.
Of course, AIB doesn't intend to concentrate much on the print side except to produce high quality. AIB's main concentration is audio. And considering just how many audio editions I have TRIED to find, but couldn't, and how many I did buy that I still listen to while traveling to and from work, and my dad (an over the road driver) listens to while traveling, and my kids listen to when we can find those suitable......I think you see where I am going with this...
Anyhow, Those are the main reasons the trade size is chosen. If it's going to actually cost you the same, there isn't any reason not to garner enough to actually cover your costs rather than having to count on write-offs to garner an end-of-the-year profit.
Done rambling. Gonna shut up now.
LA
www.authorsinkbooks.com
LaurieAnne
|
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
702
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 04:55 pm: | |
I was wondering if various publishers ever offer either size, the smaller one or the large tb pb so to speak.
Is there a difference in marketing? Will certain stores take more of one than another?
Will certain stores ONLY reject you because POD pops up on their computer?
AND
If Ingrams only stocks 3 a week (and heck, I can scare up more biz than that, but only 3 copies are 3 copies...and had it thrown in my face over and over that it suddenly was unavailable...and I was treated like a fool for not knowing it...if that is the truth) then my max sales will be 150 copies a year?
It all sounds stupid to me. Where do all the books come from? A pool in heaven?
Sounds like I have been strung along, folks... makes a guy not wanna promote a book anymore when crap like that happens...nothing like being incredibly enthusiastic with tons of resources and folks wanting to get the book...and then told they are unavailable...and told "Oh yeah, aren't you a dumbass for not knowing this?"
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2913
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 05:30 pm: | |
1st Books and Dandelion Books let me choose what size I wanted. I don't remember getting a choice with PA, but maybe they gave me size options and I forgot. |
priceless1
Wandering Member
Post Number:
106
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 05:40 pm: | |
Okay, I'll toss in my two cents, for what it's worth. Our printer offers nearly any size we want to print and the pricing is roughly the same. My book through a different publisher came out in a 6x9 size, and while that's fine since it's 450 pages long, the smaller size is simply easier to palm. 'Course, I have pathetically tiny hands so nothing fits in them easily.
The dimensions we print in are the 5.5 x 8.5. It's not paperback size, but it's not a larger size either. We chose that because it's easy to hold, stick in a backpack or purse. It was purely aesthetics because the price was the same.
Mass paperbacks use the offset printing, which keeps the price way low. They are inferior in quality, but they are cheaper. We aren't in the position to print mass paperbacks from an offset printer. Yet.
So, in short, we could print in the paperback size, but the price would be the same. In my mind that would really irritate a customer.
As for Ingrams...well, these guys are a very tough road to hoe. Until the publisher has 10 titles in print, you have to get into their distribution center through the back door, meaning certain printers who are owned by Ingrams, which rip the publisher off terribly and raise the price of the book. For those reasons we no longer use them. Once we have 10 titles in print, we can open up our own direct relationship with them
Using certain printers also does pop you into the bookstore data banks as a POD. Another reason we don't use them. Bookstores see these printers and instantly think 'no return policy,' and won't go any further with the author for book signings. Now, I'm talking in generalities here, so keep your flying coconuts for Herschel.
Steve, I'll try to answer your questions:
"Is there a difference in marketing? Will certain stores take more of one than another?"
There is no difference in marketing. A book is a book. We are finding (keep in mind, we're still in the infancy stages here) that if stores like the the book it could be wrapped up in a cereal box and they'll want it. If they feel that the publisher and printer are ones who are reasonable and can meet demand, and have a return policy, the ball is much more in your court. Getting into stores is damned difficult, plain and simple. Any small publisher that guarantees you will be in the brick and mortars is looking at you to cover their next mortgage payment. Effective marketing is what gets you into the bookstores. Well, that and a quality book.
"Will certain stores ONLY reject you because POD pops up on their computer?"
Yep.
Lynn
Lynn
lynnprice.net
|
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
703
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 06:10 pm: | |
The no return policy is a major hang up and I have been told as such.
It is bad to be warmly greeted by bookstore folk only to be then frustrated at another turn. They always seem happy for BOOKS for BOOKS sake. The POD pop up is a killer.
My second novel was the 5.5 X 8.5 and I like that better than the larger.
Dunno why I find the smaller pb so great, though. Dunno if it the price or carry size.
Price is key. Quality, though, is important. Some may buy a book cased on an author, but let us face it, a book on a random shelf will be picked up by a passing set of eyes because of a TITLE or a cool cover. IF one can get this customer to read a blurb and find it interesting enough to BUY it, hey, we all win.
Signings? Funny you should mention those. Would love to do them. Would love to. Would really love to. Makes ya wonder why I haven't huh?
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Todd Hunter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1452
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 06:33 pm: | |
I've been wondering that, actually...about your signings, Steven.
Another great thing is to have a book prominently displayed...or make it obvious to the customer they have a reason to buy the book.
Case in point: A local Borders had some stock selling for $12.95 (versus the regular $16.95 list), but no one even knew it was there. So, I made a little 'mini-poster' advertising the fact it was discounted, and after a couple of attempts, finally got the store to put it up near the books. 2 or 3 copies disappeared off the shelves that next week. I'm not sure why in the world they took the sign down, but hey......
But on the notion of cool covers and titles......when I go into the bookstore, I always walk around the tables to see what's there. You'd be surprised how many covers and/or titles just aren't really that appealing...but when there is one, I pick it up and take a look...
I prefer trade paperbacks over mass markets, simply because I can open them up, and not worry about the thing getting warped out of shape terribly. |
Victoria Strauss
Awareness Member
Post Number:
44
Registered: 11-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 06:50 pm: | |
Strictly speaking, the difference between mass market and trade paperback isn't size, but how you return them. As has been mentioned, with mass markets the cover is stripped and returned (the book is then supposed to be disposed of but often isn't), while trade paperbacks are returned whole and the publisher can either warehouse them or sell them to a remainders dealer. There are trade paperbacks that are mass market size--I believe some of the games publishers do this, and it also happens sometimes in YA. For instance, Harcourt's Magic Carpet imprint publishes mass market-sized trade paperbacks for about the same price as mass markets.
- Victoria
www.victoriastrauss.com
www.writerbeware.com |
writersagent
Hunger Member
Post Number:
100
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:32 pm: | |
I have found that the 6x9 paperbacks are much easier to hold and read in bed.
But this just might be my own personal taste.
There are also the huge hardback books that you almost have to put on a table to read. They are tough to read in bed.
Oh, did I mention I like to read in bed?
http://www.literaryagent.2ya.com |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
704
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 05:07 pm: | |
If there is no return policy there ain't much to it I guess...
Many take a fleyr on a local author, but if I had Todd in KS say call up a local store and say "Stock GODS WRATH" by Shrews, a swell guy from Illinois, would they laugh or do it?
And if I called a store in News Mexico would they stock it?
Phone cards are cheap...
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Todd Hunter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1457
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 07:39 pm: | |
Always depends on the store manager...whether they like the book, and whether they are 'author-friendly'.
If a manager is only interested in keeping his corporate keepers happy, odds are not good for the author.
I make it a point to visit stores I want to try and get stocked in.
It's much harder for a store to tell you no to your face.
Plus, it's easier to know what managers in a particular area will be more willing to stock new authors' books if you meet with them personally, and to pass that info along to other authors.
Most managers won't stock a book unless they've read it first...
odds are much improved if it has been previously stocked at other major bookstores... |
LaurieAnne
Unity Member
Post Number:
1388
Registered: 12-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 08:56 pm: | |
CE,
Yes, offset presses are fully capable of handling ANY paper stock you want to place on the rollers. The layout procedure is different, because you have to involve signatures, stacking, and all the fun #$%^ that goes along with it. Trust me when I say remembering which page to flip and which to flop is not the easiest thing in the world. LOL.
have I mentioned that the newspaper where I work my day job does print books, too? (I know I have. LOL)
LA
www.authorsinkbooks.com
LaurieAnne
|
Kevin Yarbrough
Hunger Member
Post Number:
83
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 03:08 pm: | |
You're from Illinois Shrews? Where at? That is where I'm from.
Kevin |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
705
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 03:29 pm: | |
Central area.
hundred or so miles out of Chicago.
200 miles from St Louis.
sphincter of the universe.
Where are you from?
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Kevin Yarbrough
Hunger Member
Post Number:
85
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 03:52 pm: | |
Centralia. About 70 miles east of St. Louis. 30 miles south of Vandalia. 42 miles south of Effingham.
Didn't know Illinois had that many horror writers. Maybe it's all the damn corn fields around driving people crazy.
Kevin |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
706
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 04:09 pm: | |
I know where that is. I had a buddy in Carbondale and a brother in law in Vandalia for a visit HEH...you will get that one...
Yeah, it is flat and boring up northern section here 75 miles from Peoria...but hey, thems the breaks. I am more rural than most and like it that way. I'm not a big city dude and never will be.
A kid at work obsessed with FEMALE ASSASSINS and all that weapons crap/samuris etc was blowing off about hating small town people and what did they ever do.
My uncle Bud defeated the black angels of the SS in Nuremburg in 1945. Tractor repairman and farm boy. He was there when Patton found the spear of Destiny that pierced the side of Christ.
My father fought and beat the Japanese warriors of bushido in the south Pacific. A railroad worker and swell guy. He saw the Japanese surrender to MacArthur.
Not as impressive as a D&D party fight, I know...but I digress...
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Laurel Johnson
Unity Member
Post Number:
2918
Registered: 01-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 04:38 pm: | |
Right. Small town boys and farmers from all over this country have kicked ass on every continent in war. They did not do it because they wanted to, they did it because they had to. My money is on people like that - past, present, and future. |
writersagent
Wandering Member
Post Number:
101
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 06:06 pm: | |
What happened to the original topic?
It's weird how we always get off on tangents. Oh well.
Does size matter? In my opinion...No.
Width, on the other hand, is a different story.
No one likes a puny book, or any thing else.
- Donny -
http://www.literaryagent.2ya.com |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
711
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 06:11 pm: | |
I concur that big pbs are readable and whatnot, but I tend to like the smaller ones.
I think my original point is would the small ones sell better because of cheaper price?
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Todd Hunter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1471
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 07:10 am: | |
Cheaper prices always help sales, especially with smaller books...
I've done scientific studies with my own book as the source... |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
718
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 07:21 pm: | |
I picked up a copy of Edgar Rice Burroughs A PRINCESS OF MARS today. It was a trade pb...and I bet money that once they release a film of this (one is in the works) they will release a mass market pb and sell even more.
Which led me to this thought....
small presses or PODs...offering like reg pubs do....
maybe a first run of TRADE pbs (year or so if need be) and then the later runs at mass amrket size when a sequel or new book by the first author is released. It also makes a collector's item out of the first one. Ok, I know this will be a plate-room, file-transfer pain with the pub, or would it?
I know of a few spots in UK that have a limited hard-back run for some titles like this, but they are BRUTAL expensive...I wager asking a pal or a common reader off the street to pay trade prices is one thing. Making them pay 35 bucks is another...
thoughts?
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
D.R.
Wandering Member
Post Number:
105
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 12:38 am: | |
Hey Steven,
When I see a 6x9 paperback novel on a bookstore shelf, I grab it.
It doesn't even really matter what genre it is, I grab it.
I can get discounts at the privately owned bookstores out here in AZ because most of them are ran by independent writers and people in the publishing industry.
There is something about a paperback. I don't know what it is, but maybe the way it feels in my hands. They are so easy to hold.
The only difficulty I've found with the 6x9s is that it is kinda hard to read the edges of the pages...you know, where the binding is. You have to stretch the book out a bit so you can read it.
-D- |
Victoria Strauss
Awareness Member
Post Number:
46
Registered: 11-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 07:55 am: | |
Steven, I think the issue with trade paperback-size books and POD is one of unit cost--given the fixed expense of producing books via this technology, the trade paperback size is the only one that can be priced even remotely similarly to its offset-printed counterpart. People may be willing--if not happy--to pay $20 for a trade paperback-size book, but they'll be much less willing to pay $35 or $40 for a hardcover (which is at least a collector's item) and probably not willing at all to pay $14 for a mass market paperback-size book. MMP is really cost effective only if you have the numbers to justify offset.
Was the Burroughs book you picked up from Wildside Press? They specialize in reprints. I'm actually pretty sure that most of Burroughs' stuff is in the public domain now--PRINCESS and other books are available from a number of different publishers in just about every format you can think of.
- Victoria
www.victoriastrauss.com
www.writerbeware.com |
LaurieAnne
Unity Member
Post Number:
1406
Registered: 12-2001
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 09:19 pm: | |
Steven,
The layout procedure would mean having to create a new document file to start with. Pull in the text from the original file, add all the formatting that gets lost in the original file, and then start the whole flip-flop process again. Other than that and resizing the cover (which shouldn't take more than 10 minutes, even if you don't know what you are doing), there isn't that much more work to it.
Like Victoria stated, and I stated up higher, the main decision has to do with recouping costs. But in the event of a sequel and/or re-release, mass market would be the way to go. Sales WOULD increase as you stated, and the additional work would be worth it.
Now, if I can just get my boss to get around to that print quote for me. He can be a real pain in the keister when he thinks something could pull me away from being his bitch. Um...I mean his slave. No, that's not right either. Oh, that's right...I'm supposed to be the Circulation Director. I forget sometimes when I spend half a day folding flyers for him and showing him how to use the copy machine to print them that I'm not just a glorified secretary. LOL. Now, if I can just get everyone else to quit asking if I can be transferred to their department, he'll be in a better mood. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
yeah, the point here was that he has it in his head, rightly so, that if he can help me to cut my printing expense, then I won't be there to work for him anymore because my business would be able to flourish.
LA
(Message edited by laurieanne on May 03, 2004)
LaurieAnne
|
D.R.
Wandering Member
Post Number:
109
Registered: 05-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 11:15 am: | |
It seems that almost half of the people who post here are in the publishing business in some way.
Maybe if we spent more time actually publishing books instead of posting here, we could make some actual progress. Speaking for myself first.
But again, this post is outdated...been said many times before by other posters.
Why are we so drawn to keep coming back here when there are no results?
No new clients, no progress in getting more of our books published?
-D.R.-
http://www.drbennett.2ya.com |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
732
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 04:30 pm: | |
What would your first step be in getting a manuscript published?
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:20 am: | |
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a1209516967131 (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 210.188.216.67
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 02:56 am: | |
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