| Author |
Message |
    
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
747
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 07:38 pm: |   |
What is the difference between a standard issue POD pub, a vanity pub, and a small press? Is the "small Press" different in that they have a print run of a set number? Does a small press use POD technology, yet avoid the stigma of such a thing?
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Stacy Anderson
Awareness Member
Post Number:
25
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 09:48 pm: | |
Hi Steven,
Great questions! I don't call myself an expert but I wanted to give it a stab. If I am wrong, forgive me.
POD: Not considered " publishers " but more of a business that uses print-on-demand. Many POD companies get their money from authors buying their own books, editing services and " extras ". Their books are usually over $15 ( paperbacks even ). They don't promote much ( if at all ) and many authors consider POD companies the same as self-publishing though the two are different. Their books aren't sold in stores or bought in bulk because they are only sold by ordered copies. And of course there is no return policy so bookstores, bookclubs, reviewers and anyone else helpful to a writer's career turn their back on the entire process. The quality is much less than the quality of a traditional publisher. POD publishers aren't out to sell books but to recruit authors because authors are what gets them money and not those high-priced books they push out.
Vanity: This is when the author pays a huge stack of money upfront. The fee can be up to $13,000. ( Believe me, I know. I almost went with one not knowing any better when I first started out. Thank god I learned ). You get no promotion, no reviews, and you can forget seeing your books in any store. The only place you will see your books is in a box in your garage. Many think of Vanity presses as scams and respectable authors don't think twice about them. Once again the books are of horrible quality most times and are not up to bookstore standards.
Small Press: Small presses are considered " traditional " publishers, just...smaller. Authors get print runs, return policy, editing, bookstore placement, reviews and most of all RESPECT for their work. The books are of excellent quality because they know the ins and outs of how books should be made to sell. Small Presses don't always have the money the bigger pubs do, but they can help build your career. If you're published by a small press you have a good chance of getting the attention of a big company if your book sells even moderately. And if the smaller press is very prestigious it definitely helps. Reputable small presses don't charge money and many require you have an agent. They deal mostly with " niche " markets meaning they publish certain kinds of books they specialize in.
Yes some small presses use print-on-demand just like a lot of big companies do. ONLY for out of print books. They do not use print-on-demand for their regular runs. When a publisher wants to keep a book in print after it's gone out of print, some use POD because it's cheaper than doing a print run for an out of print book. They do this when they suspect the book may still sell but might not sell in the " thousands ". Even companies like Random House use POD for certain reasons. And no, small presses have no POD stigma because they are respected publishers in the industry.
I hoped this helps. This is what I've learned of the three and I hope it helps you.
www.stacy-deanne.net
|
Claudia Turner VanLydegraf
Mindsight Moderator
Post Number:
1173
Registered: 06-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 09:58 pm: | |
Good answer Stacy,
Pretty much what I would have said.
Claudia |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
749
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 05:32 am: | |
Well, I appreciate the thoughtful, intelligent answer. I sorta knew all that, but wanted it clearly explained for the board.
Devil's advocate? me?
ho ho ho.
Very concise. Thanks.
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
Todd Hunter
Unity Member
Post Number:
1511
Registered: 02-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 05:56 am: | |
Always good to be reminded of such info...keeps our focus on where we want to end up... |
Victoria Strauss
Awareness Member
Post Number:
47
Registered: 11-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 08:02 am: | |
I have a slightly different perspective, but I'm coming from a different point of view--as someone with some industry experience and also as an authors' advocate.
POD is not a business model: it's a technology, which different publishers use in different ways to accomplish different goals. Large publishers use it for ARCs and to keep lower-selling backlist in print. Small publishers use it as a cheaper alternative to offset, avoiding the upfront expense of large print runs and warehousing. Vanity publishers and self-pub outfits also use it because it's cheaper, and allows them to offer their services for much less money. It's really misleading to call a publisher "a POD", because "a POD" could be anything. It's more accurate to say "a POD-based independent" or "a POD-based self-publishing company" or something of the sort, to indicate what kind of publishing operation is using POD.
I'd define a "small publisher" or "small press" or "independent publisher" as any publisher that's not part of a larger conglomerate. That covers a lot of ground: from sizeable independents like Kensington, which have multiple imprints and publish hundreds of books, to amateur operations set up by people who want to try their hand at publishing but don't have much (or sometimes any) experience. The amateur operations often have bad contracts or unsavory business practices, so it's very much caveat writer. You can rule a lot of them out just by sticking to independents that are able to get their books reviewed in industry journals like Booklist, and stocked in bricks-and-mortar stores.
Some reputable independents do use POD--Wildside Press and Meisha Merlin are examples. They also use offset, for larger print runs. The decision of which technology to use is based, among other things, on the size of the desired print run--above a certain number, it's just not cost-effective to use POD, which has a high fixed unit cost that doesn't decrease with volume.
Reputable small publishers that use POD _do_ struggle with the POD stigma. The waters really have been poisoned by Xlibris and other large POD-based self-pub companies, which unleashed a tide of substandard books and desperate authors upon the world, and booksellers and reviewers are very gun-shy at this point. A reputable small publisher that uses POD needs to do everything it can to disassociate itself from the technology if it's going to be taken seriously.
The old definition of "vanity" is a publisher that wants you to bear the whole cost of publication upfront. Once upon a time there were also "subsidy" publishers, which contributed services or some of the cost of publication, so theoretically the author wasn't paying the whole shot; but I really don't know of any that still exist. Most publishers that claim to be "subsidy" are really vanity publishers trying to give themselves a more legitimate image in order to attract more customers.
I think that a new definition of "vanity" is needed. Just as the reading fee--once the most common kind of fee charged by disreputable agents--has all but vanished as authors have become more savvy about what's legit and what's not, new publishers that want to use their authors as their main customer base (as opposed to the reading public) have come up with ways to duck the standard "vanity" label--by calling their upfront charges something else ("setup" fees), or switching them to some other point in the publishing process (asking authors to pay for editing or publicity), or profiting on the back end (requiring or encouraging authors to buy or pre-sell large numbers of their own books). Because these publishers aren't asking you to pay for actual book production, many of them try to present themselves as "traditional" publishers. But the bottom line is that you're still paying to see your work in print.
So I think that "vanity" needs to be redefined as "a publisher that makes the bulk of its profit from its authors".
- Victoria
www.victoriastrauss.com
www.writerbeware.com |
Bill Nelson
Wandering Member
Post Number:
130
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 08:31 am: | |
Victoria,
It seems to me you have hit the nail squarely on the head.
Those self-publishing firms that try to pass themselves off
as conventional (like PA) are simply deceiving many wanna be's (myself included) who bite their carrot!
As we all know the row to hoe for an aspiring author is as tough as being an aspiring actor in Hollywood. Very, very few make it.
However, in baseball they say, you win some, you lose some and some are rained out. But you have to suit up for all of them!
bn |
priceless1
Wandering Member
Post Number:
129
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 10:09 am: | |
I agree with Victoria on this one. The definitions for the publishing world are being rewritten with the appearance of new companies wishing to bring the best of the big guys into a smaller, more author-friendly business model. I know how hard we're trying to break the mold of 'it's always been done this way.' The heck with the old ways. Newness brings positive change. Of course there are those who would corrupt new technology for their own selfish purposes, but how long can corruption sustain itself before they're found out?
We're already seeing a confusing shift in the bookstores as many of them try valiantly to hang on to their attitudes. For instance, they're decrying the fact that publishers are selling their books in their own online stores. Well of course we are! It's good business sense, especially when the guys at corporate headquarters kick out your title for storewide distribution consideration because you aren't one of those big guys.
It isn't business as usual anymore. Competition is healthy and breeds the typical cream rises to the top. I say honesty, integrity, intelligence, and quality will win out in the end, regardless of what technology they're using.
Gee, Lynn, tell us how you really feel. LOL
Lynn
Lynn
lynnprice.net
|
Donna Brown
Hunger Member
Post Number:
56
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:17 pm: | |
Thank you all for your insightful answers - these are things that I, and I'm sure others too, wonder/worry about. I for one have no problem with small, independent publishers. I think it's a great way to break into the business and start building some name recognition.
Donna |
Perry Comer
Unity Member
Post Number:
1344
Registered: 04-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 04:24 pm: | |
I am far from being any expert on anything except how to break the unbreakable.
But, I started trying to make it as writer in 1972, in 73 I bought my first copy of Writer's Markets. Just from sending thousands of fillers and writing magazine articles, I can say I've seen changes in the way publishing houses operate. As Lynn said, "the cream rises to the top". The authors who get the contracts from the "traditional" publishers are those who have the talent and are well on the way to mastering their craft. Publishers in the business for the long haul are able to sort out the professional and talented from the "wanabes". The really good publishers can see talent and like a big league ball team, develop the talent over a period of time.
I know there is someone out there reading this and saying, "the guy hasn't made it in thirty years he ought to quit because he has no talent." I see it the other way, I have the talent, I just have not connected with the right publisher willing to help develop the talent.
As they say, "quitters are never winners". I'll keep plugging away - sometimes discouraged and want to quit - but - I've never quit anything in my life I believe in and I do believe in ME. 
http://www.pacwriter.netfirms.com/ |
Stacy Anderson
Awareness Member
Post Number:
27
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 12:32 am: | |
Hi Perry,
" the guy hasn't made it in thirty years he ought to quit because he has no talent."
Perry, who cares what others think? It only matters what you think and what works for you.
I recently read about a man who took an entire lifetime and many surgeries before he could publish his first book, he just published it and he's 90 years-old. I'd rather be someone who tried and never made it then someone who never tried. You'll connect with the right publisher some day. As a believer in fate, I say things will happen when they happen and as much as we want to, we can never rush the outcome. But when it comes it's sweeter than honey.  Much success to you. |
F.E. Mazur (Unregistered Guest)
Work-in-progress guest
Posted From: 4.224.189.142
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 07:12 am: | |
The "vanity" in "vanity press" was not given birth because of overly proud publishers; it appeared because many of the writers, who were willing to pay thousands of dollars to see their work in print, possessed the desire to be regarded as members of the literati. These were persons who were often wealthy, but still they lacked standing. They believed having a published book would solve their problem. In some ways I liken it to Donald Trump agreeing to appear in a television show, or Papa John and other CEOs choosing to do their own commercials rather than hire an actor.
This is hardly the case today. Your neighborhood kid who's flipping burgers for minimum wage can probably save up enough cash over a couple of months to get his book published, and it’s unlikely he's ever heard the word "literati."
Moreover, internet sales were not available then as they are today. Successfully tapping into this opportunity is the challenge for every writer whose name isn't a household term.
Redefining the term "vanity press" (and in words less than concrete: "bulk of its profit"? What does that mean?) to accommodate new movements in the industry is more an attempt to maintain the stigma than to accurately represent change. It would better serve everyone if a novel term were developed and allowed to develop its own attributes and baggage.
|
Joyce Scarbrough
Hunger Member
Post Number:
91
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 07:59 am: | |
"I've never quit anything in my life I believe in and I do believe in ME."
Good for you, Perry! I really like that quote. Mind if I make a cross-stitch sampler of it? 
Toyce
True Blue Forever
Read the first chapter at http://www.authorsden.com/joycelscarbrough1
See the hunk at http://www.southernbelleauthor.com/joycepersonalpage
|
Bill Nelson
Wandering Member
Post Number:
132
Registered: 10-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 08:08 am: | |
Perry,
Along the same lines, you may have seen a blurb on TV (probably something to do with the NBA play-off, I don't really remember) of a typical household cat looking in a mirror. The reflection was a huge male lion. The caption said, "It Depends On Who You Think You Are!"
BN |
Victoria Strauss
Awareness Member
Post Number:
48
Registered: 11-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 10:33 am: | |
>>Redefining the term "vanity press" (and in words less than concrete: "bulk of its profit"? What does that mean?) to accommodate new movements in the industry is more an attempt to maintain the stigma than to accurately represent change.<<
And I think that the attempt to resist redefinition (all meanings change over time, after all) is an attempt to deny the fact that underneath the new technology, the basic motivation remains the same: a publisher that supports itself by the payments of its authors, rather than by sales of finished books to the general public.
In fact, expanding the definition of "vanity" to fit publishers that do other things than ask for thousands of dollars upfront is really sticking to the most old-fashioned meaning of the term: book-producing services that cater to authors who are willing to pay to see their work in print. Nowadays that doesn't just mean Vantage and Dorrance and the other big offset-based operations that can charge as much as $30,000 for a few hundred books, but also the "traditional" or "small press" publisher whose contract requires the author to hand over cash at some later point in the process, or that puts powerful pressure on its authors to buy large numbers of their own books for resale.
Yes, "vanity" carries a stigma (which is why I don't often use it--I know that people are very sensitive to it). Maybe the services like Infinity that are totally upfront about what they're offering should be exempted from the term (on the other hand, Vantage is totally upfront about what it offers. So should it not be called a vanity?). But if you don't call a publisher that forces authors to pay for editing or to buy copies of the finished book a vanity publisher, does that make that publisher's practices any more beneficial? What would you call a publisher like that? Maybe we should just call them heartbreak publishers.
"Bulk of its profits" means exactly that. In other words, the publisher couldn't survive without its authors' payments.
- Victoria
www.victoriastrauss.com
www.writerbeware.com |
Sharon D. Martin
Wandering Member
Post Number:
148
Registered: 03-2002
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 05:18 pm: | |
Victoria,
I agree with you!
Sharon |
Steven Shrewsbury
Wisdom Member
Post Number:
754
Registered: 04-2003
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 06:01 pm: | |
Thank you Victoria for clarification.
www.stevenshrewsbury.com |
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